using lime and cheese glue

[David Beard]

I want to try making a violin using cheese lime glue for everything except gluing the top to the ribs, and perhaps setting the neck.

Any comments, experience, tips, etc would be much appreciated and very helpful.

Some past threads have helpful info, particularly from Oded Kishony and Roger Hargrave. I also see discussion of other uses of casein and of using pure casein powder and alternate alkalis, but for now I’m interested in the lime and cheese variety of glue.

… Starting with fat free milk. I add vinegar to curdle it, I then pour it through a strainer (cheese cloth) then wash the solids in fresh water and rinse in distilled water. I then slowly add the base while I mash the ingredients together with a mortar and pestle. The glue is ready when it feels slippery and slimy between your fingers. Dilute with distilled water.

….. Oded Kishony

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=316284&view=findpost&p=377053

....the casein acid or the cheese will be granular, as you add the base it turns slippery and slimy so just keep mashing it and feeling for any granular particles, when it's all slippery it's done ….. Oded

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=316284&view=findpost&p=416340

Roger Hargrave article on casein glue:

http://www.roger-hargrave.de/PDF/Artikel/Strad/Artikel_1984_02_Case_For_Casein_PDF.pdf

Hargrave post on casein glue

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=319807&view=findpost&p=430298

Cennini on various kinds of glue, including animal glues and casein glue:

http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts/Cennini/5.htm

Searching around the web, the oldest recipes I could locate are very brief. They mostly say take some cheese (sometimes they say ‘old’ or ‘hard’) and mix with lime. Sometimes they also talk about rinsing the cheese in clear running water first to remove fat.

This leaves me wondering if it matters much what kind of cheese is used, and if there are any particulars about the lime.

Apparently cheese and lime glue is very ancient, and is reputed to be water proof/resistant. More modern sources on casein glues of various formulas don’t seem to consistently make the water resistant claim, so I wonder if that depends on the lime?

I’m assuming that in ancient times there was not such a wide range of cheeses as today. I’m also guessing that the recipes would be more specific if the kind of cheese mattered much? To start experimenting, I’ll make some glue using fresh curds, and some glue using old Swiss cheese rinds that have been allowed to harden and sweat out most all the remaining whey. I’m curious if one or the other will produce a more water resistant glue.

To get started on the lime, I made a little 2 foot by 3 foot lime pit using a big plastic container. I filled the bottom with water and then stirred in a bag of hydrated lime. I’ve got about 4 inches of lime putty now at the bottom of the pit, with 4 or 5 inches of lime water above it. I’m hoping I haven’t made a big mistake by short cutting on the lime pit. I skipped the difficultly of using unslaked quicklime, and I’ve only let my pit age for 2 months. Still, I now have a ready supply of lime putty, lime water, and milk of lime as thick or thin as desired.

I’m guessing that some of the strength of lime and cheese glue comes from having a bit of lime putty in the mix, not just lime water or very thin milk of lime. I’ll have to experiment with the balance of lime and water.

Thanks,

David

[FiddleDoug]

Just curious- Why are you letting your "lime pit" age? My background in chemistry (also building and history) tells me that slaked lime, as used in mortar, will react with CO2 in the air, and gradually turn into solid, insoluble, calcium carbonate. Seems like solid, dry, calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) stored in a glass jar, would be much more convenient and stable to use. You can calculate exactly how much water is need to "slake" a given amount of "quicklime".

56 grams of Calcium Oxide plus 18 grams of water. Seems like 74 grams of slaked lime would make a lot of glue.

Also, most cheeses have a very high fat content. Oded's recipe calls for fat free milk for good reason.

[Oded Kishony]

Seems as if you're over thinking this. You should be aware that using a strong alkali may leave an alkaline residue on the surface which will then react with most organic dye colors as well as most varnishes. So be sure that you neutralize the entire surface of the instrument before applying any varnish or color on it.

Oded

[Geoff-UK]

Kremer sells lime putty - might be easier. Pond supply firms sell calcium hydroxide in dry form, same stuff, its used as a ph adjuster for fish tanks. Still, fun to make your own - but I'd not be certain what lime to start with.

I had reasonable results messing about with it a few years back using fat free cottage cheese and Lime putty. Fat free milk powder seemed ok as well.

The last I tried was with casein powder and calcium hydroxide - and some lime putty. The casein/ calcium hydroxide seemed to mix better. They both stuck fairly well clamped up - but split apart on the join when whacked apart. That could be good, could be bad ? Maybe it was not thick enough or mixed right?

I wouldn't start worrying yourself about the types of cheese available in Italy in 1650's

Geoff

[TimRobinson]

  On 2/14/2011 at 3:31 AM, Geoff-UK said:

I wouldn't start worrying yourself about the types of cheese available in Italy in 1650's

Geoff

Why not? Sounds interesting. I suspect there were many more cheese types then than now in the world of standardised rubbish: My linkhttp://www.medievalcookery.com/helewyse/cheesenature.html

Tim

[lyndon]

a vegetarian glue, is that the point.

[David Beard]

  On 2/14/2011 at 2:55 AM, FiddleDoug said:

Just curious- Why are you letting your "lime pit" age? My background in chemistry (also building and history) tells me that slaked lime, as used in mortar, will react with CO2 in the air, and gradually turn into solid, insoluble, calcium carbonate. Seems like solid, dry, calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) stored in a glass jar, would be much more convenient and stable to use. You can calculate exactly how much water is need to "slake" a given amount of "quicklime".

56 grams of Calcium Oxide plus 18 grams of water. Seems like 74 grams of slaked lime would make a lot of glue.

Also, most cheeses have a very high fat content. Oded's recipe calls for fat free milk for good reason.

Hi,

Just an experiment, so I don't mind 'over thinking it' and even going a bit crazy on the details.

They slacked the burnt lime by agitated it into the water of the lime pit and letting it settle at the bottom and stay there a long time. The sediment at the bottom became lime putty, but needed to be agitated periodically and allowed to age. Letting lime putty age 3 years was not considered excessive. If the lime wasn't aged well, then lit bits of unslaked lime would lurk in the putty. If these little remaining pockets of unslaked lime finally hydrated in a finished work, the chemical reaction could generated a lot of sudden heat and a pop, creating little pits and flaws in the work.

My worry is that I didn't start with unslaked lime. Maybe putting already slaked lime back into water won't yield good putty and lime water??

Also, I'm curious about the lime pit for more reasons then just making glue. You can easily bend wood by soaking it in the lime water.

David

[David Beard]

  On 2/14/2011 at 3:31 AM, Geoff-UK said:

Kremer sells lime putty - might be easier. Pond supply firms sell calcium hydroxide in dry form, same stuff, its used as a ph adjuster for fish tanks. Still, fun to make your own - but I'd not be certain what lime to start with.

I had reasonable results messing about with it a few years back using fat free cottage cheese and Lime putty. Fat free milk powder seemed ok as well.

The last I tried was with casein powder and calcium hydroxide - and some lime putty. The casein/ calcium hydroxide seemed to mix better. They both stuck fairly well clamped up - but split apart on the join when whacked apart. That could be good, could be bad ? Maybe it was not thick enough or mixed right?

I wouldn't start worrying yourself about the types of cheese available in Italy in 1650's

Geoff

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

So the glue didn't hold on a shocking blow? Was it brittle or thin?

I am curious if fat is all bad in the glue? Some of the old recipes quoted on the web refer to rinsing out the fat, which implies starting with a fatty cheese and probably not getting all the fat out. Since casein is such a good emulsifier, it doesn't seem that fat would necessarily be a problem. A bit of fat might perhaps add a touch of flexibility and make a tougher joint.

I guess a want to give this a good try before dismissing it. It would be too easy to try one variant and decide that was enough to make a judgment. Roger Hargrave makes a good argument for the glue. I'm willing to mess around with it some and see what happens.

Any other observations from your experience would be most welcome.

Thanks,

David

[violins88]

  On 2/14/2011 at 5:14 AM, David Beard said:

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

So the glue didn't hold on a shocking blow? Was it brittle or thin?

I am curious if fat is all bad in the glue? Some of the old recipes quoted on the web refer to rinsing out the fat, which implies starting with a fatty cheese and probably not getting all the fat out. Since casein is such a good emulsifier, it doesn't seem that fat would necessarily be a problem. A bit of fat might perhaps add a touch of flexibility and make a tougher joint.

I guess a want to give this a good try before dismissing it. It would be too easy to try one variant and decide that was enough to make a judgment. Roger Hargrave makes a good argument for the glue. I'm willing to mess around with it some and see what happens.

Any other observations from your experience would be most welcome.

Thanks,

David

After reading Oded's posts, I made glue from skim milk and Ms. Wages pickling lime (from malwart). I also got some commercial glue from a manufacturer. The commercial stuff was far superior. It contains some filler, silex, which I think is probably important.

But if you are doing it for fun, I heartily encourage you. As for using limewater to bend wood, it has been noted here that this weakens the wood. But hey, why not develop your own tests. Real tests in which you measure strength, stiffness and the speed of sound.

I would be interested in your results.

[Michael_Molnar]

I don't get it. I'm all for experimenting but ... .

Considering the amount of time you will commit to developing this recipe with minuscule benefits over conventional hide glue, you could have finished making a violin.

Maybe I'm on the glue-makers forum.

Wait. I get it. Your violin won't fall apart when cranky guys like me rain on your parade.

Hey, hope you are successful.

Stay Tuned

Mike

[Frederick Dale]

  On 2/14/2011 at 12:53 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

I don't get it. I'm all for experimenting but ... .

Considering the amount of time you will commit to developing this recipe with minuscule benefits over conventional hide glue, you could have finished making a violin.

Maybe I'm on the glue-makers forum.

Wait. I get it. Your violin won't fall apart when cranky guys like me rain on your parade.

Hey, hope you are successful.

Stay Tuned

Mike

Could we have possibly discovered A.S.secret wood treatment? Soaking his wood in limewater(only Po water of course!)

Perhaps with a shrimp shell massage before final assembly?

I just noticed my magic wand is getting slightly warped.<G>

Fred

[Geoff-UK]

  On 2/14/2011 at 5:14 AM, David Beard said:

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

So the glue didn't hold on a shocking blow? Was it brittle or thin?

I am curious if fat is all bad in the glue? Some of the old recipes quoted on the web refer to rinsing out the fat, which implies starting with a fatty cheese and probably not getting all the fat out. Since casein is such a good emulsifier, it doesn't seem that fat would necessarily be a problem. A bit of fat might perhaps add a touch of flexibility and make a tougher joint.

I guess a want to give this a good try before dismissing it. It would be too easy to try one variant and decide that was enough to make a judgment. Roger Hargrave makes a good argument for the glue. I'm willing to mess around with it some and see what happens.

Any other observations from your experience would be most welcome.

Thanks,

David

I didn't spend much time trying to perfect it as a glue - I was more interested in it as a sealer.

I tried it out on paper - to see how stiff it was setting and how waterproof. I made some 'sticky stuff' that didn't impress me as a glue !

I'd just try out all sorts and see what you get. Isn't basic wood ash lye mostly calcium hydroxide anyway ?

Sometimes, we get too used to the consistancy of hot glue - maybe these cold glues need to be pretty thick. Cascamite, a commercial casein waterproof glue in powder form - is very weak if mixed too thinly.

Geoff

Geoff

[Newbie&Enthusiast]

The traditional cheese of Cremona is Taleggio, produced there since the 9th century, a semi soft cheese in a crust: "The dough is white or ivory-white with small and sparse holes. The texture is moderately consistent and elastic. The odour is soft with milk and cream characteristics. " 

Other traditional cheeses in Cremona would include the wide array of piedmontese and lombardian cheeses.

For more: http://www.dairyscience.info/index.php/cheeses-of-the-piedmont-region-of-italy.html

http://www.cookipedia.co.uk/recipes_wiki/Category:Lombardia_cheeses

White, fresh, stringy cheeses would seem well suited to form glue.  Take your pick!

[Michael_Molnar]

A few days ago I destroyed a spruce top by applying lime-casein glue - greatly diluted - to both sides. The plate turned into a pretzel and the end seams flew apart. 

 

I used technical grade casein to avoid issues with milk fats.  Maybe I should have included them. 

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Good luck! I couldn't make it work for me, then I gave up. I hope that you come up with something that works. Apparently the old people made glue from cheese, so why not?

Cennino Cennini mentioned in The Craftsman's Handbook that the lutemakers used fish glue.

[Peter K-G]

This works every time

 

http://www.thestradsound.com/home/varnish

 

Some leftovers

 

[Peter K-G]

  On 4/15/2014 at 1:51 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

A few days ago I destroyed a spruce top by applying lime-casein glue - greatly diluted - to both sides. The plate turned into a pretzel and the end seams flew apart. 

 

I used technical grade casein to avoid issues with milk fats.  Maybe I should have included them. 

 

Hi Michael

 

I know we've had our differences! Sorry to hear about your experience (turned into a pretzel)

Casein(natural Quark 0% from supermarket + slaked lime paste) is great stuff!!!

 

I have worked with casein+lime (+linseed oil for sizeing). I'm into tuning and how it affects plates/B1 modes as you know.

 

Casein (natural 0% fat quark) + slaked lime paste is very very great stuff. I do not want to market anything nor promote my ideas, I just want to share and help

 

Best regards

 

Peter

[not telling]

We don't have quark...cottage cheese I guess. But there is straining involved etc. I'm looking forward to testing out your recipe, if I can find a source of quark, Peter, as well as those in the book Roger recommends (Edward Pinto's 'Wood Adhesives').

[Peter K-G]

  On 4/16/2014 at 6:52 PM, not telling said:

We don't have quark...cottage cheese I guess. But there is straining involved etc. I'm looking forward to testing out your recipe, if I can find a source of quark, Peter, as well as those in the book Roger recommends (Edward Pinto's 'Wood Adhesives').

 

So I thought too until Patrick pointed out It can be found in every Country in every supermarket around the wourld

It is just natural (0,3 % fat , quarg and I do no know the translation in other languages)

[not telling]

  On 4/16/2014 at 6:55 PM, Peter K-G said:

So I thought too until Patrick pointed out It can be found in every Country in every supermarket around the wourld

Well, here it is cottage cheese, and there is an extra process with a cheesecloth if making glue. Quark is dry.

Oh...but maybe we want to think of whether pasteurized milk affects the enzymes...and whether the same goes for other common US procedures. Hormones and chemicals added, etc. -- could that affect the process of gluemaking? I bet it does.

In this case, it becomes difficult for US denizens to obtain a great quality casein.

[Peter K-G]

AND IT WORKS!

 

I do not know why - It is a perfect glue size if you mix it with Kremer Pit Lime (slaked lime paste)

[not telling]

  On 4/16/2014 at 7:01 PM, Peter K-G said:

AND IT WORKS!

 

I do not know why - It is a perfect glue size if you mix it with Kremer Pit Lime (slaked lime paste)

I believe you. Mostly because I believe Roger Hargrave.

Still, for people in my country, it is easy to get a bit of bad cheese and conclude that the whole project is pointless.