Hunt to Commission a Viola - Part 2, A continuaton on our commission of a Gregg Alf viola. Options

[llowman]

I thought it would be easier to manage our topic on the commission of a Gregg Alf viola if we started a new chapter as it were. So here is the beginning of Part 2.

I have some new pictures of the design from the back (called a "bowl of spaghetti" by Gregg), after the maple was tanned ("toasted"). I am including a number of great shots of the scroll as well (also toasted). These were taken by Gregg Alf and have his permission to share them. Enjoy!

You will recall that this is a copy from the Gasparo da Salo "Kievman" sub-16 inch viola except, for one, we went with single purfling on the top and back. I decided to call this "inspired" by this instrument rather than a copy. I should restate though that the original instrument was the starting point then Gregg made some changes: string length, cc bout length, rib height, slope of the upper treble bout, etc.

I look forward to your comments.

-Lane

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[llowman]

Here is a particularly interesting shot of the ribs, also taken by Gregg Alf (permission given to share). It clearly shows the taper. The lower base bout rib is the largest. The upper treble bout is smallest to make it easier to reach the fingerboard.

This is a composite set of pictures (same viola).

-Lane

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[llowman]

Here are some Q&A's exchanged with Gregg on some of the central issues on design including: 1) what is the actual string length of a typical 16 inch viola compared to this viola? 2) how is the "sweet spot" marked on top? 3) are the notches put in place on the ff holes after it is found? 4) with this taper rib design, does that put tension on how the back or top are glued to the ribs?

Q: WHAT IS THE STRING LENGTH OF A 16" VIOLA? IS IT 375mm? ALSO, WHAT IS THE INCREASE IN LENGTH THAT YOU ACTUALLY ACHIEVED ON THIS PROJECT OVER A TYPICAL 15 5/8" VIOLA?

A: The actual string length on your viola is projected/planned at 14 3/8ths (366mms). You were fairly clear that the 16" number you quoted was meant as the string length for a 16" viola not 16" length of string itself.

Violas do not have fixed string lengths. [There was a] 'movement' to standardize the 375 measurement but it really varies with each instrument and even then the "sweet spot" on the top for bridge placement, and hence the eventual string length, is often only honed in on by actually playing an assembled instrument --be it 1 day or 400 years old. That said, I am guessing that you about had it correct when you wrote that the string length you are getting is similar to a 16" to 16 1/4" instrument even though the body is a cm shorter. The 375 standard length is for 16 1/2 " violas more or less. Subtracting 6 mms in body length from the upper part of the model that affects string/stop length will bring an additional 3 mms of neck shortening (using the 2/3 ratio relationship). So my design at 16 1/4 would approach the standard 375 SL.

Bottom line... in a situation where there are only averages and approximations I would guess that you are picking up the equivalent of 3/8th to 5/8 inch of comparable body length.


Q: ABOUT THE "SWEET SPOT" YOU MENTION. ISN'T THIS INDICATED BY THE NOTCHES IN THE F HOLES? IF SO, WHY DON'T YOU PUT THE NOTCHES IN LATER--AFTER YOU STRING IT UP? SEEMS LIKE YOU COULD STRING IT UP, MOVE THE BRIDGE AROUND A BIT, FIND THE OPTIMAL SWEET SPOT THEN INSERT THE NOTCHES TO MARK THE OPTIMAL BRIDGE PLACEMENT.

ALSO, I REALIZED THAT THE SHORTER HEIGHT RIB IN THE UPPER TREBLE BOUT MEANS THAT EITHER THE TOP OR THE BACK PLATE MUST CURVE TO MEET THE LOWER RIB HEIGHT, CORRECT? IF SO, IS THIS A CURVE YOU CARVE INTO THE PLATE OR SOMETHING THAT IS SOMEWHAT MOULDED TO THE RIB UPON ASSEMBLY? AND, WOULD THIS PRESENT ANY LONG-TERM GLUING CHALLENGES IN THAT AREA? WOULD THERE BE CONSTANT TENSION WHERE THE PLATE(S) MEETS THE LOWER RIB?

A: Funny, I just answered the notch question for my assistant Walt. The new shorter SL brought up what has not appeared with the standard setup we normally use.

So, how long an answer do you want? Bottom line is that ff hole notches have nothing to do with stop length or sweet spot. In fact on most Cremonese violins the ff hole notches are not even level. The reason is that in the Cremonese system the neck root was nailed to the ribs before the outlines were done. Then the neck would be centered when the outline was traced. The work had to be done this way because the nailing on process of Baroque violins resulted in an unpredictable centering. The more undisciplined a maker was, think Guarneri, the more centering correction had to be made. This correction (cranking the neck centering to the bass or treble) would result in one or the other cc bout shifting up or down ...try it sometime.

Since the ff holes were placed according to the cc bouts and the notches fall exactly in the center of the ffs (another reason we cant just mark them out afterwards), centering the neck resulted in unlevel ff notches.

So in practice, ff notches are unrelated to stop length. Del Gesu notches fall at around 192 down but his sweet spot is around 195. Strad and Guarneri violins are very similar in set up even though they look different. But because they are the archetypes for everything in the violin biz, their set-up specs become standard spec for all violins, a mistake, and even general procedures applied to other instruments. In reality, especially with violas where the SL is sometimes shortened (tenor violas), the notch can be very far from the stop.

About the rib assembly: The gluing edge of both the top plate and the back plate falls in a complete plane. The plate is not bent over the edge. The Cremonese did bend the plate over the ribs for reasons still unknown. In fact it is not even agreed if they bent the top or the back. But I do know how I laid out my ribs. I made an even taper, the lowest to the upper treble bout, which raises to the lower bass bout.

[Omobono]

Lane, Looks like I'm the first to respond.
This is turning into a fascinating 'essay' on the evoltion of an interesting instrument.
Your own excitement is obvious and ther enthusiasm is contagious.
Wonderful that you are able to share it with us through illustration.
Makes a big difference.
Thanks.

[jezzupe]

you may wish to repost this on the pegbox....

many of your qeustions are those that makers may have more opinions/facts about than the players...

boy that alf sure is good....

must be nice to have such a hand in your own instrument, he is one of the great modern makers...

your creating a little future history...

somewhere 200 years from now.....

"yes, its an alf....its the "lane" you know"

[MANFIO]

Good, thanks for sharing!

Althought I have comssioned some bows (a complete "bow quartet") and some oil paintings and loved the experience, as a maker I prefer having the musician in front of me and showing him 2 or 3 of my instruments so that he can choose the one he likes most, professional musicians are so particular and demanding....

But in your case you need a small, good sounding viola, so a comission was a good way indeed! Keep us informed!!!

[llowman]

"Your own excitement is obvious and ther enthusiasm is contagious." -Omobono

Having a forum like this is a great place to share the experience and is easy to get enthusiastic! This is a very experienced group as well so the input is very helpful.

-Lane

[llowman]

"you may wish to repost this on the pegbox...." -jezzupe

Thank you for the suggestion. I will give it some thought...

"your creating a little future history..." "somewhere 200 years from now....."yes, its an alf....its the "lane" you know" -jezzupe

I hope so! :-)

[llowman]

"But in your case you need a small, good sounding viola, so a comission was a good way indeed! Keep us informed!!! " -Manfio

Manfio, you hit one of the main issues I started this discussion on regarding getting a "small, good sounding viola". Those two things are often not found in the same instrument. I am hopeful Gregg Alf can pull together these two major design elements in a way to meet the needs, not only for my daughter, but for many other violists out there.

I would think there is a significant need for a great sounding smaller viola, not just for smaller people(!), but for players who want to avoid possible injury which can happen when playing a large instrument. Why not have a more comfortable instrument?

And what about a more comfortable instrument that enhances the playability of the virtuosos out there? I read recently that the Stradivari B-form mould for his cellos (regarded as an optimal size) was settled around 1710, later in his career. Before he developed this design, cellos were a lot larger. So with this smaller form it was large enough to give a full and rich sound but small enough to be manageable for virtuosic music. I would think the same need is there for the viola.

In comparing herself to violinists, my daughter often says she has a greater challenge (in the physical sense) since she has to contend with a longer instrument (further reach) and thicker strings (no thin E string). Anything to enable her to perform with greater ease on a quality instrument therefore sounds like a good idea to me. She also says that she has 1) the music, and 2) the instrument on which to perform. What she wants and needs is an instrument that does not get in the way or make it more difficult to perform the music. The music may already be challenging. She does not need a challenging instrument as well. I think she has a point.

-Lane

[MANFIO]

Yes, it's difficult getting a good sound from a small viola, and I agree with Alf's aproach of developing a new model inspired in a classic model.

I am mostly a viola maker now. Under Michael Tree's influence I made many 17 inches violas inspired in Andrea Guarneri.

Then I was asked to make 16 /1/2 violas (a bit less than that, 418 mm), and they are still inspired in Andrea Guarneri, but to get the sound I want I make it wider, you can see this model on my website.

[llowman]

"...this are some pics of "Nannerl" (after Mozart's beloved sister), my latest one" -Manfio

The pics you posted are beautiful! However, they take up a lot of space on the discussion page. Would it be possible to upload them as links?

Thanks!

-Lane

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Manfio: thank you for editing your page but I do want to restate how beautiful your instrument looks! I see there are more pictures at http://www.manfio.com/index_files/Page341.htm. From what I can tell you are in Brazil and now wonder where you get your wood? Absolutely beautiful!

-Lane

[MANFIO]

Hi! Thank you! I've got most of my wood in Desio, near Milan, from Rivolta, in 1994.

[David Burgess]

Looks like most of the woodwork was finished in mid-July.
How did the viola turn out?

[Dwight Brown]

Looks like a thing of beauty! Gregg Alf is a very fine person and I enjoyed a number of meals with him at the Viola congress in Austin, TX some years ago. My viola teacher, David Holland, had the opposite problem, he is 6'7" and plays on an astonishing 18 3/4" Ritter viola. I hope your daughter enjoys her instrument and makes some great music with it.

Dwight