Scott Cao Revisited Options

[PhilipG]

I have read the preceding posts on Scott Cao violins, which are
numerous, but could not find, perhaps, enough information regarding
his upper end models, such as the 850, 950 and most especially, the
1500 model. Has anyone owned or played all of these? And really has
a strong point of view regarding any of these models? I am just
wondering what the important differences are, i.e., tone,
construction, varnish, etc. I don’t care where the spruce and
maple comes from, but I do care about the quality of the wood,
construction, varnish, playability, etc.Thanks for any advice

[george behary]

Philip,
I guess that I can answer these questions considering that Scott Cao violins make up the bulk of my violin sales. Basically, The 850 is the top model made in the China workshop using European wood. It is very well made and all the ones that I have sold to date have been very powerful and resposive, I can't generalize on the tone being dark or brilliant (I hate the word bright), because each model seems to have tonal qualities. I especially like the copies of the modern Italian makers.
The 950's have always been in a grey area for me...I believe that they may be coming over from China in various stages of completion and finished in California. I would say that the price difference, would make me lean towards the 850.
The 1500s that I have sold have been really good. I don't sell a lot of them, but all that I have sold have been powerful and well made. They are made and finished here in the US and the price reflects that. They have a new Signature Series that are made by Scott's top US makers. They are made with the finest wood. I am not quite sure what involvement Scott has in this model, if any.

[upnorth]

Philip,

I sell the Cao instruments as well as the Ming Jiang Zhu workshop instruments. I would add to George's excellent post that it seems to matter a great deal where the wood comes from IMO. European wood coupled with good clean workmanship and a good model, results in a fine and powerful instrument. Both Cao and Zhu make instruments from good European spruce and maple. Since Cao is in Campbell CA supervising things I would think those would be the best overall instruments. In Ming's shop in Beijing, he does a little of the work himself on each violin/viola, raising the bar.

[skiingfiddler]

Posted last year, October, on Maestronet, concerning European vs non-European woods: (Wish I knew how to make links to Maestronet internal posts.)

________________________________________

The current Newletter from the Violin Society of America has an article by Eric Chapman about the Shanghi Quartet, who served as tone judges at the 2004 Portland, Oregon, VSA competition.

The first violinist, Weigang Li, liked the Feng Jiang Gold Medal winning violin so much that he bought it.

Chapman notes that the violin was not made special for the competition. "Rather, it was the only instrument the maker had available. Feng Jiang simply submitted the violin to see what would happen."

And what is this award winning violin made of? "The top is fashioned from Canadian Englemann spruce. The maple back comes from China," states Chapman.

(end of quoted post)
________________________________________

While many makers would agree that European woods are the most desired, Feng Jiang's Gold Medal violin suggests that Chinese and North American woods can also make superior fiddles.

Concerning Cao model 1500 violins, I got to play about 4 of them at the 2004 VSA competition. They were beautifully made, tastefully antiqued, sounded good and, at that time, cost less than $4,000. If you're in the market for a $4,000 violin, the Cao 1500 would definitely be worth a look.

[uid6001]

quote:

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Originally posted by: upnorth
Philip,



In Ming's shop in Beijing, he does a little of the work himself on each violin/viola, raising the bar.

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Just little correction here. Scott Cao's factory and workshop are in GuangZhou(Canton) area for sure. I believe Zhu Ming Zhang's shop is also in GuangZhou. I saw them together at 2006 VSA, and both them trained in the same workshop in GuangZhou. The international award to first chinese maker from China is to "Chen Jin-nong" (1980 VSA).

Dean H.

[upnorth]

Dean,

Thanks for the correction, you are correct. I varified it myself and Ming Jiang Zhu is in Guang Zhou.

[PhilipG]

Hi, and thanks for the replies. I have noticed that there does not seem to be much written about the 750 Cao's. From my own research, it would seem that this is a fairly good or decent violin but still leaning more towards the beginning or slightly advancing student whereas, the 850 would appear to be a model considerably above this. As for the 950, I still know very little about it and am also wondering just how much better it is than the 850. And there is quite a difference in the price between an 850 and a 950 as well.

I have also noticed on eBay, when you do see a Cao violin up for auction, the 750's seem to sell better than the 850's. Of course, I can imagine that this would have to do with the price difference and or profit margin.

I'll say one thing, though. The Cao violins appear to hold their value quite well. Not so for new Knillings.

[george behary]

Hi Philip,
In your initial post you only asked about the 850 and higher models. The 750 models are my biggest sellers. I never had one returned for any reason and I sell them about 50 to 1 compared to the 850 models. They are one violin that sound great when brand new and develope nicely. European wood instruments seem to take a little longer to develope, but of course the wait is usually well worth it. I have only tried to sell new violins on Ebay only a few times with no luck.
George

quote:

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Originally posted by: PhilipG
Hi, and thanks for the replies. I have noticed that there does not seem to be much written about the 750 Cao's. From my own research, it would seem that this is a fairly good or decent violin but still leaning more towards the beginning or slightly advancing student whereas, the 850 would appear to be a model considerably above this. As for the 950, I still know very little about it and am also wondering just how much better it is than the 850. And there is quite a difference in the price between an 850 and a 950 as well.

I have also noticed on eBay, when you do see a Cao violin up for auction, the 750's seem to sell better than the 850's. Of course, I can imagine that this would have to do with the price difference and or profit margin.

I'll say one thing, though. The Cao violins appear to hold their value quite well. Not so for new Knillings.

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[PhilipG]

George, have you noticed any particular group that buy's the 750's?
 Young, starting students, for example?  Or seasoned
players?

[george behary]

Philip,
Mostly "Baby Boomers" that are picking up the violin again in their middle age, buy them for themselves as an upgrade to some of the student grade European instruments that they had had since their high school days. Young professionals (as in doctors, lawyers and such) buy them for their young children as their first step up instrument (even fractional sizes). But the real kicker are the retirees here in Florida that are selling their good vintage violins, putting the money in the bank and down grading in their "golden years" . I have two special customers here close by that have done this. One played a Rogeri and now plays a Scott Cao 850. She is close to 90 now. And my late friend has played a Goffriller, a Becker and a modern American violin, but finished his playing career with a Scott Cao 750. He passed away at 94 years old. He said that Scott Cao 750 that he played was as good as any of his other instruments, but some of that may have been that the Scott Cao was more suited to his playing at that age.
So everyone seems to like them. I have had Scott Cao 750s, some eastern European instruments, Some other brand Chinese instruments and a few vintage german instruments side by side in my small shop and the 750s are the only ones that seem to move.

[george behary]

sorry double post...deleted

[stern]

George like you mention for the money the 750's are the best buy. Some are exceptionally good much, much better then anything in the same price range. Some professional musicians purchase them as their second intrument or especially for outdoor concerts/gigs. They are perfect for that and come in most Strad or Guarneri models. One of my sons plays a Canon model which is made of stunning Chinese wood made 5 years ago when I bought it for $300-$350 new. It sounds superb. Nothing compares at this price.

[Andres Sender]

The 750s are 3 times that price now, FWIW.

[stern]

Not true- not for everyone. Still to be had for under $500

[george behary]

For the protection of his dealers, Scott has a minimum advertised price policy. 10% below his recommended retail price of the instrument. This only protects the dealers trying to hammer out a living selling instruments and doing repairs. What dealers offer for this price is up to them...cases, bows, accessories whatever.

[miles]

I don't know much about other Cao's model, but I have his 850 model. It is easy to play and sounds great, and I like it better than my Eastman Strings Ling Wang 905. Cao 750 for under $500 is a steal!

[PhilipG]

Just as an update, I have since tried the Cao STV-750 - two of
these models, the STV-850 and the STV-1500.  I simply was not
impressed with any of them and I do question whether they are
really worth the $1300.00, $1700.00 and even $3500.00 respectively.
 I suppose that as a "new" violin, there is something to say
for them but only if the store is going to stand behind the
instrument 100% and provide a lifetime of free set-ups (minus the
strings obviously), adjustments, etc.



If I can add some (humble) advice to anyone looking for any
violin, play a bunch of instruments before you spend any money.
 You might just , and probably will, find an
instrument for half the amounts listed above, that will
sound better.  Probably a whole lot better.  To simply
buy it because of the name would be very foolish. If I
would have bought one retail I would have been very
disappointed.

[Fellow]

Here are some good advices I wished I knew when I was younger.

" Buy the best you can afford" and " Play a bunch before you decide (just as PhilipG said )"

" If you don't like the sound, then just don't listen to it "

"Nothing, my violin does not make sound" Heifetz said when he was asked by a lady
audience in the concert "Mr. Heifetz, how much was your violin?" ( I love that joke)

[Fellow]

I do not have any these violins (Cao, Eastman, etc.) but I have a Carlo Robelli (Sam Ash)
a Jiang Shan, a Carl Bauer, a William Lewis (top of the line), a Schweitzer and a few others.

I agree 100% what George Behary said in his post # 1035. Some inexpensive violins sound have
pretty good sound. You could not say the same thing, 30 years ago. In those days (30 years ago) an
inexpensive violin was cheap in sound. Now a violin of a few hundred sound like a $2000 plus violin.
( A bit like electronic products, it becomes less expensive)

$2000 plus violins worksmanship are better. Material is about the same. I don't know how they
can afford these material,( not cheap )? It must be that they buy material by tons.

PS. Sorry I do not know how to show you pictures. The flame of this Robelli violin looks like a
California wild fire burning. I don't believe my eyes. ( however, I had to re-glue the end
of its fingerbroad, and some minor defects, I omitted to say)

[Omobono]

quote:

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Originally posted by: stern
The 750s are 3 times that price now, FWIW.
Not true- not for everyone. Still to be had for under $500

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I've never seen one period,
and a quick search didn't see anything under $1K plus.
But some do look nice: