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Ivory ban in effect


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#61 DarylG

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:43 AM

I personally have been trying to employ other materials for ivory substitution for thirty five years and now I find that even that effort is demonized by some as somehow helping to promote the slaughter the remaining herds of elephants. 

 

Hi Eric,

 

I want to apologize to you and anyone else I may have offended with my hardline position on mammoth ivory in the previous ivory discussion. I've thought a lot about it since and now think my position was well intended but ultimately misguided. I’m still very much against elephant ivory and don’t support the sale of seized ivory but now realize my position on mammoth was akin to saying faux fur encourages the fur trade. That is an extreme position that I have difficulty getting behind. You deserve to be celebrated for your efforts to employ alternative materials and if more manufactures followed your example we wouldn't have these problems. At the end of the day I come here to learn, and I am learning. I hope you will accept my apology. 


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#62 Rue

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:48 AM

...so what kinds of "precious" materials can be used in lieu of banned ones?

"Experience is a good school.  But the fees are high." Heinrich Heine


#63 MeyerFittings

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

Thanks Daryl, I've revisited my thought process also. I actually see the rationale that some elephant ivory could slip through the system by simply calling it mammoth. I also see how dissuading white ornamental trim might lessen  the market slightly. I kind of already do that, mostly because it's hard work, and the possible ramifications for travel must be pointed out. The primary moving force in the demand for white ivory is in the decorative carvings where large chunks or even whole tusks are carved. Mammoth ivory just doesn't look the same in larger pieces. It often has a brownish tint and even the whitish parts of the tusk have small cracks which are more apparent the larger the piece. It is, after al,l often 10,000 years old. I just have the feeling that the enforcement people want to make their jobs easier by throwing out anything that they need to identify as a cost cutting measure. Eliminating elephant ivory from use as decoration, has been a long slow awareness process. I am an example of someone who saw the light and changed my working materials, I know that thousands of others have done the same over the years, but many of us have items made for or made by us when ivory was just another perfect material for the task and are to precious to throw away. Aa small but entrenched segment loves the fact that the material is getting rarer and harder to obtain, thereby giving it more cashe. Some just don't care, figure elephants are doomed and make hay while they still can get the ivory, no matter the method.

 

I don't know, or does anyone I'll bet, whether 25,000 or 50,000 elephants are slaughtered but I have followed the links in this thread and the last one on the poaching situation. I've also read my share of articles in National Geographic on what is being called a new poaching epidemic. I guess since I'm not part of the enforcement community I have to take someone's word for it and since I am can't retire I still  have to spend most of my time turning spinning pieces of wood, so i don't have the time to check other peoples assertions.. Regardless of the figures,I can see no evident correlation between confiscation of ivory tipped bows from the times when ivory was legal and commonly used, and stopping the slaughter of the remaining and dwindling elephant herds. i see the rationale, but the trade in elephant ivory bow tips, from what I see, is not a significant part of the trade and has already been mostly replaced by substitutions,  I guess if fear of confiscation puts a further clamp on the desire to use elephant tips, there is an argument to be made, but there are just too many older bows with them installed to go back and change them out.

Basically the folks who care have changed their ways and are using either mammoth or silver or (ugh) plastic tips, and the people who don't, may actually like the fact that it is illegal or just don't care. Bone isn't all that great as a substitute. I've seen hippo tooth ivory: is that better because there are more of them or just because they are uglier and seem less sentient?  Same problem. Unfortunately ivory is beautiful stuff and was used instead of plastic in times past, all the way back to the pharaohs.



#64 Bill Halsey

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:45 PM

I made my first 100 or so bows with sterling or gold tips, just to sidestep the ivory issue.  I think I'll just go back to doing that.  They are a little fussier to do, but practically obviate the breakage & replacement problems.  Also, I feel that the theory that the slightly softer ivory can protect the head from snapping off if dropped is mostly b.s.

 

There's a one-hour NAMM Import/Export Webinar on New Ivory Regulations scheduled for tomorrow, Tuesday 18 Feb at 3pm EST, noon PST.  Link Here to join the Webinar.

If requested, enter your name and email address. If required, enter meeting password: ivory

For audio only, call (877) 668-4493  Access code: 803 877 049

 

Cheers -


~B~

 

"Trying is the first step to failure."

    -- Homer Simpson

 

 


#65 Matthew Noykos

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

I was just listening to the Diane Rhem show in the shop and they covered the elephant ivory trade. Here is a link to the show if anyone wants to hear it.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/

The guests on the show are pretty close to the issue. One guy from the US Fish and Wildlife Service, a woman familiar with the Chinese viewpoint, and a guy from National Geographic.

They talked a little bit about ivory in musical instruments. What they said was comforting for musicians who own something already, but if they want to sell it, it sounds like a different story.

#66 fiddlecollector

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:17 PM

Has anyone used any of the faux ivory materials that work (particularly when gluing) and look ok for bow tips? There are a few types around .



#67 MeyerFittings

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:51 PM

If it is too good an imitation, don't we have the same issues as with mammoth? Bow tips as a manufactured product have had almost no effect on the survival of the elephant populations in anything resembling real numbers.The idea is that anything that promotes the look or use of elephant ivory needs to be eliminated. I would imagine, in the case of subtitutes, the less desireable a white material in look and performance the more it will be acceptable and easy to distinguish from ivory by untrained enforcement employees.



#68 nathan slobodkin

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:29 PM

Would anyone here be willing to place a call to the US Fish and Wildlife Service, to try to get a sense of what to do about non-antique bows we own (and may wish to sell eventually) which may contain ivory?
/quote]
David
One of the few advantages of living in a under populated state is that I sometimes run into my congressmen and women in the coffee shop. I have just sent letters to three of Maine's lawmakers asking them to see what they can do to help. I'll let you all know if anything comes of it.



#69 JSully

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:34 PM

So...I shouldn't have my mother buy some mammoth ivory locally for me to use in the future, because I won't be able to sell anything made with that mammoth ivory legally? 



#70 skiingfiddler

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:38 PM

A current New York Times website article on ivory ban.


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#71 duane88

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:46 PM

I've read the regulation, and the pages that the site refers you to, and I STILL CAN'T TELL if that Finkel workshop bow that I have, Ivory headplate and all, is sellable.

 

Do we have to file off all of the ivory headplates on 20th c bows in the shop and replace them with bone? 

 

It's just too vague. A friend just returned from China with 3 bows, Ivory head plates from David Warther pre-ban Ivory, and sailed through customs, no problems. Is it just Russian Roulette? Perhaps you get caught, perhaps not? If they confiscate a bow for the headplate being Ivory, will the bow be destroyed, or will you/they remove the offending elephant part and you get your bow back?



#72 skiingfiddler

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:58 PM

I haven't been reading any of the other postings on this thread.  So, this, from the nytimes.com article, may be old news:

 

Begin quote:

The new rules will also apply to rhino horn, whale teeth, walrus tusks, tortoise shell and certain woods that are also regulated under the 1973 Endangered Species Act.

End quote

 

This is much broader than just ivory.


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#73 skiingfiddler

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:18 PM

I've read the regulation, and the pages that the site refers you to, and I STILL CAN'T TELL if that Finkel workshop bow that I have, Ivory headplate and all, is sellable.

 

Do we have to file off all of the ivory headplates on 20th c bows in the shop and replace them with bone? 

 

It's just too vague. A friend just returned from China with 3 bows, Ivory head plates from David Warther pre-ban Ivory, and sailed through customs, no problems. Is it just Russian Roulette? Perhaps you get caught, perhaps not? If they confiscate a bow for the headplate being Ivory, will the bow be destroyed, or will you/they remove the offending elephant part and you get your bow back?

 

Duane,

 

All I know is what is in this article and I'm no lawyer, but it looks like the ban is on interstate sales.    Thus if you sold the bow from your shop in Washington to a customer in your shop, you'd be ok with ivory in a 20th century bow.  [Edit: This is not entirely correct.  There are in-state restrictions. But they can be met.  See following post.]  But you couldn't send the bow to an out of state customer. 

 

[Edit: I don't know if shipping a bow, either by USPS or private shippers, to an in-state Washington customer would be treated any differently than a sale at the Seattle shop counter.  Let's assume that in state shipping would be the same as buying in person at the Seattle shop.]

 

The in-state customer would then have to rely on the following, taken from the above cited nytimes.com article:

 

Begin quote:

Mr. Hoover said his agency would allow musicians to travel with ivory instruments if they gather paperwork to prove the items are legal and predate 1976, when the earliest ivory curbs began. 

End quote.

 

The question then becomes, what responsibilities does a dealer have to in-state customers in providing them with information about travel restrictions and paperwork to allow interstate and international travel.

 

I suppose a dealer could say that if the in state customer doesn't ask for any such information or documentation, then none need be provided.  That strikes me as legally permissible but less than helpful.


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#74 skiingfiddler

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:05 PM

In reference to the in-state out-of-state distinction I made in the last post, the following from the the White House paper cited in the original post is relevant:

 

Begin quote:

Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory:  We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document.

End quote. (my emphasis in bold)

 

The problem then would be having the paperwork that proves that a bow was made before 1975 and in the USA (in the case of US dealers) before 1975.  If one has receipts going back to before 1975, then you're ok, but that's a big "if."


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#75 Will L

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:53 PM

I can't deal with reading through this whole thread, so forgive this question if it's been discussed:

 

What now are the responsibilities of the dealer to the client in this matter?  And what are the legal problems when the buyer finds out you didn't give him enough paperwork?  Is this just going to be one big headache for the foreseeable future?



#76 duane88

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:06 AM

Headache for the foreseeable future.

 

I was 10 in 1975. I have no receipts from then, and I don't know of too many folks who do. A few, but not too many.

 

Sartory lived well into the 20th century. Selling a Sartory with a Ivory headplate, without proper proof of ownership from before 1975, is not prohibited? 

 

Changing the headplate to bone, on same Sartory: Does it change the value?

 

I guess that my point is that, from what I have read, it is just too vague to determine what our responsibility is. Depends on what "is" is...

 

The expectation of documentation is unreasonable.

 

Headaches for the foreseeable future.

 

p.s. I've got a bunch of Brazilian Rosewood...undocumented, of course.



#77 skiingfiddler

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:24 AM

From what I've read so far, as far as restrictions go, there's no distinction between a sale involving a dealer and a sale between two private individuals.  You're selling a potentially illegal item if you, as a private player, sell your ivory tipped bow to another private player, unless you have the proper documentation for the bow.

 

This is almost funny if it weren't sad: In my fading years (in the USA), to raise extra cash, I'll be able to easily sell any guns I own and won't need any documentation of their origins or histories.  I could legally sell them at my next garage sale.  But, the violins and bows?  That looks like it will be harder.


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#78 skiingfiddler

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:56 AM

Here are some insurance related questions: 

 

If you have an item, say, with ivory content, and you can't legally sell it, because you don't have the documentation, should you, as a private owner, bother to insure it?  It has no market value on the legal market.

 

Also, would an insurance company reimburse for damage to or theft of any such item, since it has no market value?

 

Can you get any compensation for your currently insured property if a new law makes that property worthless, in the sense of not being able to sell it?  Nothing happened physically to the item.  It just lost its value.


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#79 Will L

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:23 AM

It just seems like even if we begin retrofitting ivory tips, that wouldn't satisfy anyone who can't tell the difference in the first place.  "Hey, Buddy, what did you do with the ivory you took off? Did you report it, present it to the governing agency, and fill out the paperwork?"

 

A client who gets his bow confiscated and maltreated, it seems to me, could have a legitimate complaint with the dealer.  And the ensuing headaches, whether a client can win in a suit or not, could be formidable

(that's French  :) )!  This nightmare scenario may only be with me, since I haven't tried to sort it out.    



#80 Rue

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:00 PM

I was wondering if you'd ever have to prove that what you have is NOT ivory?

 

If someone especially zealous at an airport is convinced my plastic bow tip is ivory...then what?


"Experience is a good school.  But the fees are high." Heinrich Heine





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