46 replies to this topic

[Norman Clark]

I Lurk, but seldom post here. Couldn't help but read recent caustic comments when a poster ask for info on approximate age of his newly acquired fiddle. Reminds me of a fiddle I cherish.

In the mid 1950s, Bryce, my desk partner in one of the studio orchestras had an extra-ordinary violin that I coveted more than anything in life. It was pristine, beautiful, and had the best "sound" of any fiddle I had ever played, and I played it anytime Bryce would let me. ---Yes, I am fully aware that the true violin experts and dealers say that violin value has nothing to do with tone or sound or even playability, the certified maker and condition are everything. I understand that, but this particular violin with it's simple Amati label was in my mind, priceless. And another yes, I know a good violin when I hear one. B ythe 50s I had played professionally for 15 years and spent much time in violin shops in London, NY,Chicago and LA playing on some VERYexpensive instruments. I was fully aware Bryce's violin was not an Amati.

Time passed; Bryce stayed in the business, I went back to school and got a real job. We kept in touch and exchanged Christmas cards for the next 20 years, then about 6 years ago I found out that Bryce passed away. With a great deal of effort I tracked down Betty, his wife in an assisted living facility still in LA. I called her and ask about Bryce's fiddle.

She remembered me and said the fiddle was in storage, I could have it if I would come and get it. The grand kids had played with it,but did not want it. I could not get away immediately, so called my sister in LA, wired her a thousand dollars and told her to do whatever, schmooz with Betty giver her the grand and get the violin. The next day my sis calls and says "you paid a grand for this violin?! It's in pieces." So, when I get it, I take it to Ken Sullivan, my favorite restorer of all time, and ask what to do. He suggests the dumpster, after all it's just a busted up German Amati. So I ask "what's the tab to make it like it was"?

"Three grand and 3 months."

"OK"

So now I have 4 Large in it, it sounds and plays better than ever. In my safe are 14 other violins the cheapest one, I paid $16,000 for. I wouldn't take 50 grand for my German Amati, that most of you would not pay $500 for. Is that because of it's sentimental value? -- I'm not sentimental.

[jacobsaunders]

I wouldn't take 50 grand for my German Amati, that most of you would not pay $500 for. Is that because of it's sentimental value? -- I'm not sentimental.

Glad you like it! (and glad you don`t want $500 for it! )

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Its a cool story. I have a pro client with something maybe similar in that in the last 100 yrs or so it has had top London work done on it that would always have been above it's market value ......reflecting a musician's appreciation of the fiddle probably.

[skiingfiddler]

Great story, a great example of judge a fiddle by how it plays, not by its place of origin.

[GlennYorkPA]

I Lurk, but seldom post here. Couldn't help but read recent caustic comments when a poster ask for info on approximate age of his newly acquired fiddle. Reminds me of a fiddle I cherish.

In the mid 1950s, Bryce, my desk partner in one of the studio orchestras had an extra-ordinary violin that I coveted more than anything in life. It was pristine, beautiful, and had the best "sound" of any fiddle I had ever played, and I played it anytime Bryce would let me. ---Yes, I am fully aware that the true violin experts and dealers say that violin value has nothing to do with tone or sound or even playability, the certified maker and condition are everything. I understand that, but this particular violin with it's simple Amati label was in my mind, priceless. And another yes, I know a good violin when I hear one. B ythe 50s I had played professionally for 15 years and spent much time in violin shops in London, NY,Chicago and LA playing on some VERYexpensive instruments. I was fully aware Bryce's violin was not an Amati.

Time passed; Bryce stayed in the business, I went back to school and got a real job. We kept in touch and exchanged Christmas cards for the next 20 years, then about 6 years ago I found out that Bryce passed away. With a great deal of effort I tracked down Betty, his wife in an assisted living facility still in LA. I called her and ask about Bryce's fiddle.

She remembered me and said the fiddle was in storage, I could have it if I would come and get it. The grand kids had played with it,but did not want it. I could not get away immediately, so called my sister in LA, wired her a thousand dollars and told her to do whatever, schmooz with Betty giver her the grand and get the violin. The next day my sis calls and says "you paid a grand for this violin?! It's in pieces." So, when I get it, I take it to Ken Sullivan, my favorite restorer of all time, and ask what to do. He suggests the dumpster, after all it's just a busted up German Amati. So I ask "what's the tab to make it like it was"?

"Three grand and 3 months."

"OK"

So now I have 4 Large in it, it sounds and plays better than ever. In my safe are 14 other violins the cheapest one, I paid $16,000 for. I wouldn't take 50 grand for my German Amati, that most of you would not pay $500 for. Is that because of it's sentimental value? -- I'm not sentimental.

We may generously concede that 100% of classic Cremonese violins perform like classic Cremonese violins.
It may be that only 5% of German violins perform like classic Italians but because of the huge output from Germany, that small percentage still represents a large number. You got one of the good ones. Congratulations.

Glenn

[lyndon]

we havent begun to establish that your amati is even remotely similar to the 20th century german amati copy in the other thread, have we????

even if it is a generic german fake the 19th century ones can be much better than the 20th century ones

[bcncello]

It may be that only 5% of German violins perform like classic Italians

And that's because of the kiln process of course.

[jacobsaunders]

Great story, a great example of judge a fiddle by how it plays, not by its place of origin.

Yes, a great (if rare) example indeed!, particularly of someone who knows that he has paid too much, but is still happy . It would be fun to smuggle the OP`s “German Amati” into the next Fritz “Blind Test”:
https://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/06/old-violins-for-new-now-heading-for-limelight-paris-test.html
and put this “either Stradivari or new” nonsense (as if there was nothing in between)to bed.

[martin swan]

We may generously concede that 100% of classic Cremonese violins perform like classic Cremonese violins.
It may be that only 5% of German violins perform like classic Italians but because of the huge output from Germany, that small percentage still represents a large number. You got one of the good ones. Congratulations.

Glenn

If only 100% of the classic Cremonese violins performed like classic Cremonese violins ...! In my limited experience the figure is well under 50% - and I have no sense that there's a characteristic Cremonese sound, I'm just thinking about whether they sound good bad or indifferent.
On the other hand it's clear that "German" industrial production resulted in very few great sounding violins, but they're not that uncommon either.
Great story - if more players chose violins with their eyes shut (particularly when checking the price tag) this wouldn't be an unusual tale.

[martin swan]

And that's because of the kiln process of course.

I'm not wanting to cause a fight, but is there any documentation to support the use of kilned wood in early 20th century violin production, either in Schoenbach or Mirecourt?

[bcncello]

I'm not wanting to cause a fight, but is there any documentation to support the use of kilned wood in early 20th century violin production, either in Schoenbach or Mirecourt?

No fighting needed! In fact when I mentioned about the kiln I was both trying to say the same you have said and be a bit ironic at the same time (hope Lyndon doesn't read that!)

Actually I started playing the violin just a few weeks ago and I bought a.. (drumrolls) German Maggini!

[martin swan]

Thought so ....
If you ever want to upgrade to a Mirecourt Maggini, just let me know

[lyndon]

ok doubters, heres a link to an article in the 1894 popular mechanics detailing the early use and introduction of kiln drying beginning around 1850 and fairly common by 1894, i can hardly imagine germany and france were far behind

http://books.google....ng wood&f=false

[Jacob]

ok doubters, heres a link to an article in the 1894 popular mechanics detailing the early use and introduction of kiln drying beginning around 1850 and fairly common by 1894, i can hardly imagine germany and france were far behind

http://books.google...... wood&f=false

If anything, that article shows how far-fetched your obsession with "kiln-dried wood" for the purposes of violin making is.

[lyndon]

it shows how far your obsession of belittling the serious attempts at research i do here on maestronet is, what i have at least proven is that any violin made after 1890 could have used kiln dried wood

[GlennYorkPA]

If only 100% of the classic Cremonese violins performed like classic Cremonese violins ...! In my limited experience the figure is well under 50% - and I have no sense that there's a characteristic Cremonese sound, I'm just thinking about whether they sound good bad or indifferent.
On the other hand it's clear that "German" industrial production resulted in very few great sounding violins, but they're not that uncommon either.
Great story - if more players chose violins with their eyes shut (particularly when checking the price tag) this wouldn't be an unusual tale.

Martin,

I agree with your assessment that not all classic Cremonese violins perform according to expectation.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the very small percentage of German factory fiddles that perform extremely well, numerically exceed 18thC Italians.
When output is measured in millions, some are bound to work well as statistical flukes.

Glenn

[Jacob]

it shows how far your obsession of belittling the serious attempts at research i do here on maestronet is, what i have at least proven is that any violin made after 1890 could have used kiln dried wood

Lyndon, what you don't seem to understand is that the results of research need to be interpreted scientifically.

Example: Neanderthal Man had a gene which probably resulted in red hair. Would it make sense to claim than every modern red-haired person is therefore descended from Neanderthal Man?

The violins which you used to claim were routinely made with so-called kiln-dried wood (now you've modified it to "could have used") were mass-produced on the cheap, but nevertheless often in a cottage-industry manner - for the first part of the process therefore a highly decentralized process. The article you referenced indicates a large-scale process which implies considerable centralization of the processing method as well as considerable cost. The violin-making industry in Germany at the time did not require this, and it would not have been cost-effective.

The article also clearly shows that it was recognized quite early on that there are very few advantages to be gained from real, genuine kiln drying as opposed to controlled seasoning. This has been stated over and over on this forum by REAL experts in the field of modern wood harvesting and seasoning methods, but still you pursue this myth of kiln-dried wood like a latter-day Don Quixote charging windmills.

[lyndon]

kiln dried wood is considerably cheaper than air dried wood, to say that the cheapest mass producers of the 20th century would not find that attractive is idiotic

[James M. Jones]

kiln dried wood is considerably cheaper than air dried wood, to say that the cheapest mass producers of the 20th century would not find that attractive is idiotic

Cheaper now ,how about in 1850? My guess is "state of the art" materials would be substantially more expensive....even if inferior.

[Jacob]

kiln dried wood is considerably cheaper than air dried wood, to say that the cheapest mass producers of the 20th century would not find that attractive is idiotic

Your goal-post shifting is rather unsubtle - until yesterday it was the 19th century as well.

Please provide substantiation for your assertion that "kiln dried wood is considerably cheaper that air dried wood". Also provide these figures as they relate to wood prepared specifically for use in lutherie. We are really not interested in your fantasies and conspiracy theories. Let's have some substantiated facts, OK? Otherwise, let it all out in a great violin-making mystery novel (but learn punctuation first).