23 replies to this topic

[mdaddona]

I´m sure this is a well worn path, but here goes... Does anyone follow the system for positioning f-holes set forth by Andrew Dipper, which has been furthered, i believe in a paper from ´04, by Alvin Thomas King? I´m attracted to this approach for reasons of pedigree, but also the use of golden section proportions. Some of the most important bits seem a bit vague, and i´m wondering if anyone has some insight.

[Michael_Molnar]

Could you provide a citation (references)?

[Berl Mendenhall]

When Andrew speaks I listen. I'd be very interested in reading this paper. Do you have information where I can get the paper?

[robertdo]

You can read the pdf here.

[Berl Mendenhall]

You can read the pdf here.

Thank you robertdo, I was just reading Sacconi's book today on sound hole placement.

[mdaddona]

You can read the pdf here.

This paper seems to me to be a much expanded version of the one I have. I´m sure this will help. Thanks alot. ps- where did this come from?

[Jeff White]

When Andrew speaks I listen.

Yeah, I just spent a week with him in a workshop(oberlin), alot of experience. I'm sure there is something to his methods. jeff

[Bob Spear]

I´m sure this is a well worn path, but here goes... Does anyone follow the system for positioning f-holes set forth by Andrew Dipper, which has been furthered, i believe in a paper from ´04, by Alvin Thomas King? I´m attracted to this approach for reasons of pedigree, but also the use of golden section proportions. Some of the most important bits seem a bit vague, and i´m wondering if anyone has some insight.

Andrew Dipper was the first to suggest that the pin placement on Strad's violins served another purpose beside simply registering the plate on the ribs. He thought the pins had some relationship to the f-holes, but I'm not sure he came to it before Tom King, who was the first to work out the geometrical underpinnings. Tom's system allows a maker to be very precise about f-hole eye placement. This precision was necessary because the Cremonese used a template to connect the eyes, which required a near-perfect fit and an exact placement of the eyes. You can see this template in Sacconi's book.

The geometric method allows proper placement of the eyes, but it does not explain how the rest of the f-hole was drawn or how the diameters of the eyes were derived. I tried to devise a more maker-friendly approach in my American Lutherie articles in 2008. Issue 94 contains the method for making a template off the violin. In hindsight I'm not sure that I got it all that much simpler, but it does allow for a perfect f-hole that correlates exactly with King's hypothesis. It's great reading, too, especially if you are having trouble falling asleep!

[robertdo]

This paper seems to me to be a much expanded version of the one I have. I´m sure this will help. Thanks alot. ps- where did this come from?

I found it few months ago on the web when I was looking at some reading about f-hole positioning. It's true that I had not really bothered about this before, just looking at where the f-holes were located on other violins, using the purfling line and the center seam to draw them. Having at least one potential system is a good thing.
I also read that the shape and positioning of the f-hole should relate to the arching of the top plate, since the f-hole free the plate by cutting through the grains. So there must be some connection between the number of grains cut and the degree of freedom a maker want to achieve.
Maybe some makers here can bring more precisions on this?

[Michael_Molnar]

... .
The geometric method allows proper placement of the eyes, but it does not explain how the rest of the f-hole was drawn or how the diameters of the eyes were derived. I tried to devise a more maker-friendly approach in my American Lutherie articles in 2008. Issue 94 contains the method for making a template off the violin. In hindsight I'm not sure that I got it all that much simpler, but it does allow for a perfect f-hole that correlates exactly with King's hypothesis. It's great reading, too, especially if you are having trouble falling asleep!

Bob,

I believe this article will be included in the next Big Red Book of American Lutherie Vol. 6 scheduled for early 2013. Correct?

Mike

[mdaddona]

I found it few months ago on the web when I was looking at some reading about f-hole positioning. It's true that I had not really bothered about this before, just looking at where the f-holes were located on other violins, using the purfling line and the center seam to draw them. Having at least one potential system is a good thing.
I also read that the shape and positioning of the f-hole should relate to the arching of the top plate, since the f-hole free the plate by cutting through the grains. So there must be some connection between the number of grains cut and the degree of freedom a maker want to achieve.
Maybe some makers here can bring more precisions on this?

I remember reading some time back in an older VSA journal about the tendency of the f holes on classic Cremonese instruments to appear 'flat' when viewed on edge. Whereas, mostly they appear to run uphill. The point was if the f´s were more or less parallel with the arching, it made for a more responsive plate. I know the degree to which you dig out your fluting will effect this appearance to some degree, but I think being aware of it cannot hurt. I´ll dig up the lecture and get back to you on it.

[LinkMan]

You can read the pdf here.

The Cremonese System for Positioning the F-Holes © Alvin Thomas King Revised 8 September 2004*
How Stradivari Positioned the F-Holes ©** Alvin Thomas King Revised 8 September 2004*

[LinkMan]

Divide and Rule In the first of a two-part article, Hans Pluhar observes Stradivari's drawings and measurements, and tries to answer some of the questions he raises.


Control and Spontaneity in the Positioning of f-holes In the second part of his article on f-holes, Hans Pluhar turns to a method of positioning f-holes that he believes was practised by Stradivari.

Derek McCormick’s Violin Blog Making a violin and other violin-related topics - The f-holes


"Page 30 - Geometric Design of the Stradivari Model G Violin, Part Two: f-Holes by Robert J. Spear"

"Geometric Design of the Stradivari Model G Violin, Part Two: ƒ-Holes by Robert J. Spear"

[LinkMan]

AMERICAN LUTHERIE #76 Winter 2003
"Classical Cremonese Violin Soundhole Placement by Michael Darnton
Michael Darnton thinks he's cracked the elegant geometry that the old violin makers of Cremona used to locate their soundholes."



F-hole placement a diagram for the placement of f-holes on a Cremonese violin model

[mdaddona]

I found it few months ago on the web when I was looking at some reading about f-hole positioning. It's true that I had not really bothered about this before, just looking at where the f-holes were located on other violins, using the purfling line and the center seam to draw them. Having at least one potential system is a good thing.
I also read that the shape and positioning of the f-hole should relate to the arching of the top plate, since the f-hole free the plate by cutting through the grains. So there must be some connection between the number of grains cut and the degree of freedom a maker want to achieve.
Maybe some makers here can bring more precisions on this?

VSA journal vol. 9 no. 1. 1986
"Arching and Graduation- Theory and Practice" . This is a panel discussion format, and the speaker I referred to was Raphael Carrabba. But be warned, like the title says, this article is specific to grad. and arching. The f hole piece was given as an indicator as to the "correctness" of the arching shape, according to the theory of Mr. Carrabba. I just feel, at some primitive level, that this is a good idea.

Edited by mdaddona, 08 August 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Bob Spear]

Bob,

I believe this article will be included in the next Big Red Book of American Lutherie Vol. 6 scheduled for early 2013. Correct?

Mike

Hi, Mike-- This is the first I've heard of it. Thanks for the notification.

[Bob Spear]

AMERICAN LUTHERIE #76 Winter 2003
"Classical Cremonese Violin Soundhole Placement by Michael Darnton
Michael Darnton thinks he's cracked the elegant geometry that the old violin makers of Cremona used to locate their soundholes."

It might be worth pointing out the statement made by Andrew Dipper in one of his articles on violin geometry written (I think) in 1985. He notes that the design of the violin is highly rational, and that once you know this, it is possible to impose other highly rational schemes on the design with excellent correlation (my paraphrase). This observation is certainly borne out by the dozens of other schemes I have seen using circles, triangles, hexagons, pentagons, the golden section, and so forth. Ake Eckwall's book alone must have at least twenty, and his is not the only book.

Of course, all of these approaches are "correct" if that term means that one can design a typical violin using any one of them. We're all hung up in thinking that unless we can find out the way that the Cremonese did it, everything else is not correct. While I would certainly like to know exactly how Strad did it as an important piece of violin history, there are many roads that lead to Rome.

[Berl Mendenhall]

It might be worth pointing out the statement made by Andrew Dipper in one of his articles on violin geometry written (I think) in 1985. He notes that the design of the violin is highly rational, and that once you know this, it is possible to impose other highly rational schemes on the design with excellent correlation (my paraphrase). This observation is certainly borne out by the dozens of other schemes I have seen using circles, triangles, hexagons, pentagons, the golden section, and so forth. Ake Eckwall's book alone must have at least twenty, and his is not the only book.

Of course, all of these approaches are "correct" if that term means that one can design a typical violin using any one of them. We're all hung up in thinking that unless we can find out the way that the Cremonese did it, everything else is not correct. While I would certainly like to know exactly how Strad did it as an important piece of violin history, there are many roads that lead to Rome.

First of all thank you Bob for all the work and research you put into this. I love reading and wondering how the old Cemonese makers built their instruments.

Has anyone mentioned "Story Sticks"? I know seventeenth and eighteenth cabinet makers used them. They could build a piece of furniture and never take a measurement off a ruler. I believe they were laid out with dividers. These story sticks could be laid out once on a thin piece of wood using the drawings. That might explain why the drawings are in such good shape. If used each time to set dividers, I would think they would have more ware.

Just some random thoughts.

[Berl Mendenhall]

I have read and re-read Thomas King's articles "Cremonese System for Positioning the F-Holes". I enjoyed the articles quite a lot. I also re- read Roger Hargrave's work on "The Working Methods of Guarneri del Gesu and their Influence upon his Stylistic Development". Great stuff form both authors.

It made me wonder why the major production on placing the f-holes. I couldn't help but wonder why in the 1550's Andrea Amati didn't just say "this looks nice I'll put the sound holes here". After all it was just a violin. They were meticulously laid out with Golden Section geometry. A lot of work for the placing of the sound holes on a fiddle. That's just one of the things that make this stuff so great, thank you Andrea. You or whoever it was that figured it out, you are the man.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Here's to Alvin Thomas King.