16 replies to this topic

[John R]

What do you think about this article in Strings? At what price price should one consider doing this? As the article says, I am thinking of it like a home inspection - obviously not going to take the sellers word, but at what price point does it become cost effective? Would anyone else insist on an independent report like this before purchase?

Your Fiddle's Secrets Revealed

[jacobsaunders]

When I (or any of my colleagues, I`m sure) offer a violin for sale, I lend it to the customer for an approval period first. I`m sure most have it checked out by another violin maker, even if they don`t tell me. This is why I have no sympathy at all for people who buy worthless rubbish on the internet, without even seeing it first, let alone trying it out. I must admit though, I would think you were bonkers if you stuck my fiddle in a CT maschine.

[duane88]

Although I am in favor of getting opinions from others and having the condition evaluated by other shops you should consider the following:

1-The other shop has violins for sale. Often...they would rather you buy something from them. On occasion, you can get a truly unbiased opinion in the same city that you got the violin in, but not often, in my opinion.

2-If you are "obviously not going to take the sellers word", then perhaps you should reconsider who you are doing business with.

I generally will look over an instrument and point out repairs and things that I consider to be a potential problem and suggest that they discuss these things with the person who let them take the violin on trial if they are really bad or dangerous to the health of the instrument. I always try to avoid commenting on price when a violin from another shop is presented to me for a verbal opinion/evaluation.

[Flyboy]

When I (or any of my colleagues, I`m sure) offer a violin for sale, I lend it to the customer for an approval period first. I`m sure most have it checked out by another violin maker, even if they don`t tell me. This is why I have no sympathy at all for people who buy worthless rubbish on the internet, without even seeing it first, let alone trying it out. I must admit though, I would think you were bonkers if you stuck my fiddle in a CT maschine.

The crazy thing is at least one dealer here in US (an ex-official with AFVBM, iirc, but don't quote me on that) has a policy stating you cannot have another dealer check out his fiddles out on approval. I don't know how he enforces such a policy.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly have sympathies for certain dealers who might feel a bit abused by their customers, but a policy of forbidding independent appraisals strikes me as a bit too unconscionable.

[Tommy]

It depends on the general price point to some extent, but at least for more expensive items, violin dealers have a fiduciary duty to not misrepresent merchandise that they sell. This is case law. Unfortunately the world of violins is an art and priced as an art market (a black art???) and not easily learned at that. There are many but not all violin dealers who resemble used car salesmen in their actions so taking a violin to another dealer would only invite another potentially biased opinion....oh you are looking at Nuremberger bows...well here is a great specimen.... I think that there are only two practical options given all of these issues.

- buy directly from the person who made the violin (but he/she may have an unrealistic view of what his/her product is worth) so strong negotiation skills are vital

- buy only things that have an established/documented price history and then decide what is a reasonable auction to retail markup. If the item is on consignment, there may be some flexibility. I have been on both sides of that equation...in life shit happens.....

[jacobsaunders]

I`m sorry to pick on you, since there are plenty of posts on this forum along the lines of yours.

There seems to be a deeply ingrained irrational predjudice against the violin trade on this forum. Over the decades I have noticed that people who bought from bone-fide violin shops, virtualy always got exatly what they paid for, wheras people who bought from so called ”private” individuals (more recently, increasingly in internet) most certainly didn`t. And yes, I have 8 Nürnberger bows in my bow cabinet and of course anybody can compare a Nürnberger bow that they have on approval with all of mine. What is wrong with that?

[John R]

But when you buy a house, the seller has a vested interest in keeping any defects from you. You get an independent appraisal AND an independent inspection. The seller might be a great guy but you would still get independent verification. In fact the bank insists on it before they will give you the loan - even on a refinance you have to get a new appraisal.

And even if a violin dealer knows or even suspects a defect but can't be sure, would they disclose it if it meant taking a loss or losing a sale? You have to wonder. A comment has been added to the article by Terry Borman saying that shops are already using CT scanning but keeping the results for their own use, so they obviously see some value in the process.

The article also makes a point that there are things that even the most scrupulous dealer cannot see. So taking it to another shop some defects would not be seen either. Another shop might want to sell you one of their instruments and not be objective. Just makes me really consider how much trust in my very large investment I am putting in one individual's word or reputation. There have been some people with very good reputations in some pretty big scandals over instrument valuations in the news. I am not sure that reputation alone is enough these days to ensure the soundness of such a large investment.

I'm not ONLY buying the instrument because it sounds good (although that is important). I expect it to at least hold it's value and hopefully appreciate. If in the future, I go to sell it and a defect is discovered that reduces the value - previously restored, patches, etc. I would not be a happy person. Or my heirs would not be happy . . . . .

[jacobsaunders]

Oh shit, I forgot to get the CT scan when I bought my house!

[Anders Buen]

Can one be sure to get an independant evaluation of a possible buy from a competitor in the trade?

[jacobsaunders]

Of course you can. Should you be convinced that all violin makers are related to Saddam Hussein, you can go to several, add together and divide.

Alternatively you can get screwed buying one in internet where you haven`t even evaluated it yourself.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

But when you buy a house, the seller has a vested interest in keeping any defects from you. You get an independent appraisal AND an independent inspection. The seller might be a great guy but you would still get independent verification. In fact the bank insists on it before they will give you the loan - even on a refinance you have to get a new appraisal.

And even if a violin dealer knows or even suspects a defect but can't be sure, would they disclose it if it meant taking a loss or losing a sale? You have to wonder. A comment has been added to the article by Terry Borman saying that shops are already using CT scanning but keeping the results for their own use, so they obviously see some value in the process.

The article also makes a point that there are things that even the most scrupulous dealer cannot see. So taking it to another shop some defects would not be seen either. Another shop might want to sell you one of their instruments and not be objective. Just makes me really consider how much trust in my very large investment I am putting in one individual's word or reputation. There have been some people with very good reputations in some pretty big scandals over instrument valuations in the news. I am not sure that reputation alone is enough these days to ensure the soundness of such a large investment.

I'm not ONLY buying the instrument because it sounds good (although that is important). I expect it to at least hold it's value and hopefully appreciate. If in the future, I go to sell it and a defect is discovered that reduces the value - previously restored, patches, etc. I would not be a happy person. Or my heirs would not be happy . . . . .

Not sure why this thread is on the auction scroll, unless ebay has contacted a second opinions from Borman & company.


From personal experience, I'd say that a good many dealers value their own reputation over your money and a "maybe". Besides, a good dealership tends to back up their clients purchases with policy.

That's not to say that all dealerships are good... or that all in the trade are held by the same ethics.

Second opinions? I see no difficulty, as long as those giving them can remain relatively unbiased. The advertised $5,000+ variety? I can actually see this as having it's place in some circumstances, as long as some kinks can be worked out of the reporting system (the example report I read on another thread in the pegbox had some problems, in my opinion. Some of which I noted).

I also feel for the dealers who have had difficulty within the system. There are a few of us out there that do offer guidance, with all optional instruments we might be able to offer "off the table". Unfortunately, one does run into difficulties with bias if that's not the case.

In terms of frustration, I think the fault is often shared... clients who have built up trust with a dealer tend not to be sensitive to the fact that they may not have even bothered to look at what that shop has to offer... and bound through the door proudly presenting their "find". Others tend to not disclose the facts (a situation from which I will politely decline to comment). Some dealers can't get over the fact that they may not have "the" violin for every player, or feel their "turf" is being threatened. Etc.

In a perfect world, a buyer might ask the offering dealer for a list of three names that they'd be comfortable offering an opinion. The buyer could select one they may know or be comfortable with, or suggest and alternative person should they have a preference for them. I know, I know... t's not a perfect world.

In the case of more expensive instruments, it's not unheard of to hire a consultant. This person is paid by the buyer, not the seller... so is a "buyers agent". That agent can go as far as the buyer wishes, CT scans and all... but brings some expertise of instruments and the market to the table.

[Anders Buen]

Out of curiousity (I do not deal with violins), do the makers giving an apprisal or second opinion get paid for their service?

[jacobsaunders]

I certainly don`t, unless I`m doing it in writing for a law court. BTW there are thousands of things a violin maker has the honour of doing for nothing.

[Anders Buen]

Ok, thanks! Maybe the non paying customers sometimes turn into paying ones at some time.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Out of curiousity (I do not deal with violins), do the makers giving an apprisal or second opinion get paid for their service?

Jacob is more generous than I when it comes to detailed second opinion. In most cases I charge my rate. A simple "look see" (quick verbal) is different.

I try to be careful to determine what exactly the client wants, then explain what I'm doing and what to expect.

[Mountain Luthier]

There is always a general market value and then
there is a value established by auctions of
similar instruments. A viola in a pawn shop
in Bloomfield, New Mexico of a known maker of
fine shop instruments is not going to fetch
as much as it would in a fine violin shop.
Few people know what a viola is in Bloomfield, NM
vs people enter a fine violin shop looking for
a viola.

[jacobsaunders]

There is always a general market value and then
there is a value established by auctions of
similar instruments. A viola in a pawn shop
in Bloomfield, New Mexico of a known maker of
fine shop instruments is not going to fetch
as much as it would in a fine violin shop.
Few people know what a viola is in Bloomfield, NM
vs people enter a fine violin shop looking for
a viola.

You are quite right of course. One and the same instrument can/does have vastly varying “values” depending on the context. When writing expertise for the Austrian Law Courts they (most practically) have a precise guideline, which lists the 6 main different circumstances that determine the various values of one and the same instrument (or carpet, or whatever).

-Wholesale value,
-Retail value,
-Fair price between private individuals,
-Cash sale from private individual too a merchant,
-Value as bank collateral,
-Value when seized by a bailiff.

and explores the relative monatary proportions.

Probably the most interesting cognition one can draw, is that the overwhelming majority of the Maestronet mob have the impression that they had a birthright to the full retail value, although this is by the very kindest interpretation a minimum of 30% too much.

Apart from that, and with the usual reservations, since I haven’t seen it;
I could imagine that there would be pretty short odds that the viola in the pawn shop
in Bloomfield, New Mexico, is worth a nice round sum.