17 replies to this topic

[Casey Jefferson]

I recently discovered that my violin is very sensitive with bridge tilt, does this suggest my violin being very sensitive, or something is wrong with the bridge?

I suspect is more to do with the bridge as it's warped slightly towards tailpiece (as opposed to the more common towards-fingerboard), hence slightly flexible waist. I've always tried to keep the bridge stand up straight though, and check the bridge foot try my best to make sure no visible gap that suggesting the bridge tipping forward/backward.

Then again, I didn't expect the result to be dramatic - slightly tilt can affect the overall bow response and the way the sound projected and sounded at a distance. When it hit the sweet spot, which I'd say incredibly narrow, the violin responded as if everything connected - sound seems to come out instantly, I can even feel it when I'm playing the violin. Other than that, sometimes can get a nice sound, but may sound thin at a distance, and sometimes thick nice sound at a distance, but very poor bow response.

I believe my bridge won't last too long, and I wasn't really happy with the bridge curve so going to fit a new bridge sooner or later. But would like to hear some opinions from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

[~ Ben Conover]

For a laugh I moved the bridge of a new viola from the 'normal' place in front of the sound post backwards an inch so it was 3mm BEHIND the soundpost, the viola sounded quite good actually.

In other words, I believe that there's a lot of bullshit written about the 'normal' bridge post relationships and their supposed subtleties.

[Christopher Jacoby]

I think the vibrating string length (from nut to bridge blade) and the afterlength (from bridge blade to tailpiece) are what is changing the sound of your instrument as it leans. These can be very touchy for projection and warmth, especially if the instrument was worked thin.
Ben- that scares me! Now I have to go mess with this fiddle...

[Bruce Carlson]

For a laugh I moved the bridge of a new viola from the 'normal' place in front of the sound post backwards an inch so it was 3mm BEHIND the soundpost, the viola sounded quite good actually.

In other words, I believe that there's a lot of bullshit written about the 'normal' bridge post relationships and their supposed subtleties.

Ben,

It seems that old instruments that have been played for a long time with the bridge in a certain position, don't sound as good when the bridge is shifted to a different position. We've tried with the idea of standardizing the bridge position but usually go back to the old position.

Could be that it's not as crucial in a new instrument because it hasn't been played in yet or undergone any transformation or deformation due to the string tension. What's so great about new instruments is that you can do exactly what you please.

Bruce

[Don Noon]

From a purely structural point of view, a bent bridge may be much worse in transmitting lateral vibrations than one that is merely tilted at the wrong angle. One that is bent will couple lateral forces into bridge twisting motion, and could waste energy that way. Of course, the very fact that it is bent may imply something bad about the wood of the bridge, too.

[Bruce Carlson]

I recently discovered that my violin is very sensitive with bridge tilt, does this suggest my violin being very sensitive, or something is wrong with the bridge?

I suspect is more to do with the bridge as it's warped slightly towards tailpiece (as opposed to the more common towards-fingerboard), hence slightly flexible waist. I've always tried to keep the bridge stand up straight though, and check the bridge foot try my best to make sure no visible gap that suggesting the bridge tipping forward/backward.

Then again, I didn't expect the result to be dramatic - slightly tilt can affect the overall bow response and the way the sound projected and sounded at a distance. When it hit the sweet spot, which I'd say incredibly narrow, the violin responded as if everything connected - sound seems to come out instantly, I can even feel it when I'm playing the violin. Other than that, sometimes can get a nice sound, but may sound thin at a distance, and sometimes thick nice sound at a distance, but very poor bow response.

I believe my bridge won't last too long, and I wasn't really happy with the bridge curve so going to fit a new bridge sooner or later. But would like to hear some opinions from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

Hi Casey,

Tossy Spivakovsky, who was concertmaster of the Berlin Philharmonic under Furtwangler at the age of 18, when tuning his violin would play the A string alternately on both sides of the bridge until he got the interval between the bridge and the tailpiece the way he wanted it. Spivakovsky was playing a plain gut (unwound) A which simplifies the procedure.

When you are playing and the violin is functioning at its best, memorize the note between the bridge and the tailpiece crest. When you are tuning to A, if this second note is sharp the bridge is leaning too much towards the tailpiece and if it's flat the the bridge is leaning to far towards the fingerboard.

Every time you change an A string you might have to memorize a new note because of the difference in windings and silk wrap at the end of the string.

Hope this makes sense.

Bruce

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I recently discovered that my violin is very sensitive with bridge tilt, does this suggest my violin being very sensitive, or something is wrong with the bridge?

I suspect is more to do with the bridge as it's warped slightly towards tailpiece (as opposed to the more common towards-fingerboard), hence slightly flexible waist. I've always tried to keep the bridge stand up straight though, and check the bridge foot try my best to make sure no visible gap that suggesting the bridge tipping forward/backward.

Then again, I didn't expect the result to be dramatic - slightly tilt can affect the overall bow response and the way the sound projected and sounded at a distance. When it hit the sweet spot, which I'd say incredibly narrow, the violin responded as if everything connected - sound seems to come out instantly, I can even feel it when I'm playing the violin. Other than that, sometimes can get a nice sound, but may sound thin at a distance, and sometimes thick nice sound at a distance, but very poor bow response.

I believe my bridge won't last too long, and I wasn't really happy with the bridge curve so going to fit a new bridge sooner or later. But would like to hear some opinions from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

Hi
In addition to the pertinent above suggestions,
It is as you already say time for a new bridge. On a well fitted new bridge (in the rare case this happens) the down pressure from the top of the bridge is equally distributed over the whole bridge foot. With the bridge you describe and the adjustments also I suspect that you are loading the front or the rear of the bridge feet and thus getting different sound/playing effects

[Michael Richwine]

Hi
In addition to the pertinent above suggestions,
It is as you already say time for a new bridge. On a well fitted new bridge (in the rare case this happens) the down pressure from the top of the bridge is equally distributed over the whole bridge foot. With the bridge you describe and the adjustments also I suspect that you are loading the front or the rear of the bridge feet and thus getting different sound/playing effects

That was my first thought when I read the original post. I've been called a genius more than once because of the dramatic change in sound that occurs when you just get the feet bearing evenly. Bridges get tilted with use, of course, but I also find plenty of cases where the feet don't line up with each other all that well.

[Casey Jefferson]

First of all thanks to everybody who contributed the help!

@Ben - I've heard about fiddlers putting the bridge behind the soundpost too! I do have a believe that pretty much the same with Bruce - instrument get used to the vibration and the stress of the setup and will adjust itself if it's been set for long time, hence the instrument wasn't able to readjust to new setup in a short period.

@Jacob - I'm not too sure if the string length is playing the trick but that's one of the thing that came to my mind after I posted the topic. I'll keep track on the length with more precise ruler.

@Don - I believe the bridge has good wood but I believe I tip the bridge much too backward and not aware of it hence resulting a slightly warped bridge, which I suspect the arch of the violin is playing a trick to my eyes that the bridge is appearing 90 degree relative to the arch but it actually overshot the angle a little too much. Though the bridge was never in extreme angle though as I keep an eye of it from time to time.

@Bruce - I've heard/read about tweaking the after length pitch to get a good tone, but using the pitch as reference indicating if the after length has changed is a first time. However, isn't the pitch vary if the string's tension wasn't evenly distributed between vibrating length and after length due to tuning and stretching out? I do use a regular ruler to keep track of the after length but it seems that the sweet spot has almost no leeway, so I gotta try to keep track with more precise ruler, and at the same time observe the pitch of the after length.

@Nonado and Melvin - I believe that can be the case too, but I felt that it maybe to sensitive, just slight difference, like, fraction of an mm, can change the sound quite a bit. Before fitting a new bridge, I'm going to spend a little while to investigate further by first changing the strings and see what happen.

[~ Ben Conover]

Bruce, good point. That expensive old instruments need to retain their normal bridge position is very understandable, and on the new instrument I messed around with the bridge went back where it was supposed to be.

Usually the violin bridge has a flat back, anyone else here tried to curve the back side slightly ?
I know some makers do this with Cello bridges.

[Christopher Jacoby]

I put a .5 mm curve on the back of every violin bridge before final thicknessing. Seems to add a year or four under normal conditions, yes.

[~ Ben Conover]

Interesting J, it's something I started doing last year too.

http://www.flickr.co...157630512573848

[Michael Darnton]

[Casey Jefferson]

Michael, if your post was directed to me, then yes, I got your message.

[captainhook]

No, Casey, it was directed at other posters.

[Casey Jefferson]

From a different perspective, here's an update - I tried to experiment some other tile angle or afterlength, but decided to put it back to where it was according to my record. It didn't sound as good anymore so I was wondering what went wrong - turned out that the A string notch worn down further due to the graphite under the string ran out and start to introduce more friction. The notch was already worn a little before this, still acceptable, but now it really affect the tone.

Remembering about the super glue filling technique, I bought a tube off the store, apply it very carefully by spreading it to toothpick tip first then transfer it to the notch, let dry, and viola! What a difference it make, and I just set the bridge angle to the last known good position and it worked instantly.

[tpj54]

Moving the bridge back a little gives some slack , the notes are farther apart. I file a curve into the back of the bridge. No tip is too abrupt.

[smithjp]

Hi. I would worry that a warped bridge (either way- forward or back- albeit I think there may be less pressure for a backawards warp) but anything bent-at-the-waist, is not only not optimal, but could snap during tuning or worse, in mid play and do bad things. Wafer-thin, and warped bridges can be suprisingly durable- so many factors that, but I wouldn't risk a violin on it's most readily replaceable part besides strings. I am also wonderining, if for those who find radically different bridge posititons to be better than something within the usual 'between the f-hole maker stops' position, if the problem isn't a misplaced or shifted soundpost. I do not know how to formulate that into a question but if anyone can sort a question out of the above, please consider this an inquiry! I've been doing some experiments with bridges (don't we all?) and I was thinking- how to make sure, before replacing or sorting out bridge issues- what method is there to make sure the soundpost itself is in the optimal place? There are 'tartini note' ways to tune open plates, and peizo-electrics for testing brigdges- but what of an everyday violin? Besides tap-tone, I have not discovered a good way to test post adjustment without putting on a string. Which requires putting on a bridge. To the best of my knowledge, the bridge-post is sort of two elements but one unified sound-transmission, um, thingie. Also, has anyone else tried the curved back of bridge? I'm equal parts (in the non-cynical way) still a bit wary of the practice as it violates the time honored 90 degree angle- but one for which I have seen few hard and fast mechanical explanations- and yet curious- what would that do to sound/ tone and longevity of bridge mechanics, generally speaking? Thanks all. Any comments welcome.