39 replies to this topic

[LongNeck]

Please help with the age and origin of this old instrument.

The photos show it in various stages of setup with various attachments, but all the pictures are of the same fiddle.

One feature that seems unusual is an inlaid pattern of six fleur-de-lis on the back.

I have some idea about the origin from the previous thread "violin: making a bridge for a low flat fingerboard" at http://www.maestrone...howtopic=326328

Hopefully the present thread will fill in some details.

One question regards the original quality. Was this one of the VSO's of its day, or run-of-the-mill, or above average?

If anyone wants other photos, please let me know.

Here are some measurements:

Overall length without endpin: 595 mm

Body length: 360 mm

neck stop: 132
body stop: 194

Bout widths (tape measure across the belly, including edges):
upper: 161 mm
middle: 110 mm
lower: 202 mm

fingerboard
length 263
width at nut 23.1
width at bridge end 42.5
radius of curve (bridge end) 43.5

height projected onto bridge (strung) 22.7
height over belly at bridge end (strung) 17.0
thickness at edge over neck: 5 to 6 mm

saddle length 38.1

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[Don Noon]

Please read the thread at the top of the list: "If you are uploading photos, please read!" Way too big.

[jacobsaunders]

I already told you what the violin is in post #34 of your previous thread

[FiddleDoug]

See post #25 of your previous thread.

[LongNeck]

I already told you what the violin is in post #34 of your previous thread

Yes, I know. You said it was a through-neck 19th-Century violin from Saxony. Thank you. I was hoping that the detailed photos and measurements might lead to a precise date or maker or information about the quality.

Can you remark for instance about the fleur-de-lis inlay on the back and what that might indicate?

Thank you.

[LongNeck]

See post #25 of your previous thread.

Yes, thank you. I intended to acknowledge your previous remark that it is "probably an old German factory fiddle" when I wrote:

I have some idea about the origin from the previous thread "violin: making a bridge for a low flat fingerboard" at http://www.maestrone...howtopic=326328

Hopefully the present thread will fill in some details.

[LongNeck]

Please read the thread at the top of the list: "If you are uploading photos, please read!" Way too big.

Yes, I did read that before posting, I used a photo editor to crop the photos, and I did not think I was being wasteful. But I am afraid they do still require some scrolling. Sorry about that. I'll see if I can do better next time.

For all these photos put together I used about 8 MB of my "Unlimited global upload quota (Max. single file size: 10MB)"

[jacobsaunders]

Can you remark for instance about the fleur-de-lis inlay on the back and what that might indicate?

Thank you.

I would suspect that that had been added later

[FiddleDoug]

"I was hoping that the detailed photos and measurements might lead to a precise date or maker or information about the quality."

Generally, the answer is no. Measurements don't mean much, and the fact that it was almost certainly a "factory" violin means that there was no individual maker. As for quality- Does it have real blocks in all corners? Does it have a roughly carved(inside) top, with a carved in bass bar, or a well graduated top with a glued in bass bar? We already know that it has a dyed/painted fingerboard (low quality), and a low neck angle.

Also, when doing pictures, I usually set the image size to about 5"x7" at 180 pix/inch.(around 200K)

[LongNeck]

the fact that it was almost certainly a "factory" violin means that there was no individual maker. As for quality- Does it have real blocks in all corners? Does it have a roughly carved(inside) top, with a carved in bass bar, or a well graduated top with a glued in bass bar?

I'll keep in mind what you said about the picture size and resolution.

With a bright light and a dental mirror, I am able to see blocks at the corners and at the tail end. It seems that I see an inch or so of neck coming through at the other end. I am able to see a seam between the bass bar and the top, so the bass bar doesn't seem to be carved-in. And I see the linings.

[LongNeck]

Does it have real blocks in all corners?

Can somebody tell whether the corner blocks are real without removing the top?

[Christopher Jacoby]

Tap and listen, or drill and see!

[FiddleDoug]

"Can somebody tell whether the corner blocks are real without removing the top?"

You could always have it X-rayed.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

If you have a tuning fork, place it on top where the block should be located. You will hear a difference depending on if there is a block or not. With a block, there is much resonance. Without, weak resonance. Comparing the lower and upper corners in this way should give the answer for this old Saxon violin, or should I say, VSO.

[Walter O'Bannon]

You have a broken lower treble corner on the top. Look to see if there are linings peaking through. At any rate, if it has corner blocks, they are not going to be original.

[jacobsaunders]

Can somebody tell whether the corner blocks are real without removing the top?

If you were to study and understand the two main traditional methods of building violins, you would see what corner arrangements it had from the opposite side of the street.

[FiddleDoug]

You'll find out when you remove the top to fix that big crack.

[LongNeck]

You have a broken lower treble corner on the top. Look to see if there are linings peaking through. At any rate, if it has corner blocks, they are not going to be original.

The main part of that break doesn't go as deep as the bottom of the purfling groove. Only the very tip of the corner of the top is broken all the way through, exposing nothing but 3 mm of the corner of the ribbing. So lining and block can't be visible.

BTW I think I saw a post somewhere by Lyndon saying that maybe the main purpose of purfling was not decoration, but to stop any edge damage from going farther into the top.

[Walter O'Bannon]

I am by no means an expert, but I can help you connect the dots a little. Sometimes, if something is open or even broken you can peak in to see the tips of the linings running alll the way into the corner. What Jacob is getting at (and you should pay special attention to what he says) is that the protruding corners on the rib garland should let you know that the ribs were originally glued to each other without a mould and then rasped down. This method does not require a corner block but due to the fact that a large portion of the world's lower quality violins were produced with this method, there is a stigma against violins without corner blocks. For this reason, corner block facades were sometimes installed. When seen through the ff holes they have an "equilateral triangle" look to them and are usually well centered in the corner. They also tend to have a flat appearance whereas a real corner block will be pared back after it is removed from the mould. Facades were usually installed after the linings so they will appear to butt up to the facade from the inside yet continue all the way through the corner.

Jacob sums up this process in post 18 of this thread:
http://www.maestrone...pic=325798&st=0

It's a good idea to bookmark it and read it from time to time. Everything I have said is largely paraphrased (hopefully accurately) from this.

[LongNeck]

I am by no means an expert, but I can help you connect the dots a little. Sometimes, if something is open or even broken you can peak in to see the tips of the linings running alll the way into the corner. What Jacob is getting at (and you should pay special attention to what he says) is that the protruding corners on the rib garland should let you know that the ribs were originally glued to each other without a mould and then rasped down. This method does not require a corner block but due to the fact that a large portion of the world's lower quality violins were produced with this method, there is a stigma against violins without corner blocks. For this reason, corner block facades were sometimes installed. When seen through the ff holes they have an "equilateral triangle" look to them and are usually well centered in the corner. They also tend to have a flat appearance whereas a real corner block will be pared back after it is removed from the mould. Facades were usually installed after the linings so they will appear to butt up to the facade from the inside yet continue all the way through the corner.

Jacob sums up this process in post 18 of this thread:
http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=325798&st=0

Thanks for that pointer and for your remarks.

The lower corners match the description of corner facades that you and Jacob have given. I haven't yet been able to maneuver a mirror to see whether there are facades over the upper corners.

As you and Jacob apparently have seen, the middle ribs are joined to the top and bottom ribs in points at the corners. Anyway I can't discern any joints, even on the (rough) top surface of the rib exposed by the mentioned corner break. Everybody can see that the lower rib is of two pieces. There are/were slight overhangs of the back/belly past the corners of the ribs, but they are/were mostly on the C-bout sides of the corners, so I don't think that that is inconsistent with Jacob's characterization of Saxon origin.

The purfling groove at the corner break has a depth of 2.5 mm, and the unbroken top is 4.0 mm thick there, for whatever that observation might be worth.

I wasn't able to get any good hits on information about the time frame for the adoption of glued bass bars and the mentioned routing machine in the Saxon industry. Now if we could get a little treatise on that, or a pointer to same, it would seem that we could find a probablistic upper limit on the ages of a great many 19th-C. Saxon violins.