20 replies to this topic

[Tommy]

Would greatly appreciate any information on the famous (as far as I know French) rosewood pegs that actually are black and shiny like polished ebony and have a gold sort of art deco gold leaf treatment on the ends...e.g. what is the wood and where did it come from? Who made them? Are they valuable? Are they rare? Is there some kind of Lacey act connection? Thank you. Tommy

[Dave Slight]

Old Rosewood pegs which are very dark will most likely be made from Brazilian Rosewood. It was commonly used in the past, although it is sadly now endangered. The gold caps could have been fitted at any time.

[Wolfjk]

Would greatly appreciate any information on the famous (as far as I know French) rosewood pegs that actually are black and shiny like polished ebony and have a gold sort of art deco gold leaf treatment on the ends...e.g. what is the wood and where did it come from? Who made them? Are they valuable? Are they rare? Is there some kind of Lacey act connection? Thank you. Tommy

Hi,
Can't tell without a photo. African blackwood is a rosewood species (Dahlbergia)and is nearly black with similar hardness and weight to ebony.

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[MeyerFittings]

I think Tommy is asking about the same type of peg wood he questioned in the Auction Scroll.
http://www.ebay.com/...9#ht_3348wt_934

Although the pegs on the Vuillaume do look pretty black with time and use and rather gunky finish, they most likely started out life as a very dark red/brown and came from Brazil . There are more than fifty species of Dalbergia and although African Blackwood is a Dalbergia, and is often confused with ebony, it is much harder and heavier than what we commonly call rosewood. It gets so much more confusing when the common names such as pallisander and grenadille get thrown about. There is a rosewood from Madagascar that is pretty dark and hard but the relatively renowned dark rosewood you are refering to, that one sees on the French instruments usually came from Brazil. I was told once that there were very good trade areements in the 19th Century and earlier between France and Portugal that allowed french access to Brazilian woods (think Tourte). If you truly are refering to a wood that is as hard as ebony then African Backwood is the one. It's also called grenadille or umpingo, comes from Tazmania and is used to make clarenets. Even though the pegs in the Vuillaume are black looking the pores are long and frequent, especially when viewed on the sides. If so the rosewood is not as hard as it's reputation would leave one to believe, but I think it is the blackish rosewood you are referring to. It is relatively prized these days in lieu of the dwindling supplies of Brazilian rosewood available. Even within the species dalbergia nigra often called jacaranda there is quite a bit of variation in terms of hardness and color which makes things even more confusing. As the politicians don't say, I may be wrong but I approve of this message.

[lyndon]

i think youre refering to tanzania in africa, not tasmania in australia, eric!!

[MeyerFittings]

i think youre refering to tanzania in africa, not tasmania in australia, eric!!

Whoops. Serves me right for acting like I knew the score. Any way it's a desert tree. There was a great TV documentary about the tree and the Selmer clarinet connection about ten years ago. I often use it for my peg collars instead of ebony. It turns better and shines up nicely due to the resin.

[Wolfjk]

Hi,
Now I have seen the photos I Know what Tommi is looking for. I think the pegs on the violin are more likely to be made of some Asian rosewood than Dalbergia nigra! The last piece of genuine brazilian rosewood I could get was in 1979!! If I find some of it I will post a photo. It is the scent and texture that takes it apart from other rosewoods.

[Urban Luthier]

Whoops. Serves me right for acting like I knew the score. Any way it's a desert tree. There was a great TV documentary about the tree and the Selmer clarinet connection about ten years ago. I often use it for my peg collars instead of ebony. It turns better and shines up nicely due to the resin.

There is a Tasmanian Blackwood, but it has the appearance North American black walnut. As for african Blackwood, a friend of mine who is a furniture / tool maker, considers African Blackwood to be as tough as mild steel!

[MeyerFittings]

[quote name='Wolfjk' timestamp='1341094656' post='548075']
I think the pegs on the violin are more likely to be made of some Asian rosewood than Dalbergia nigra!

What leads you to think that?


Here are some quick photos. sorry about the lighting.

First one is of pegs. Left side cello is blackwood the rest are Dalbergia nigra (brazilian) center piece of wood at the bottom is blackwood other two are brazilian


next pick is close up of rosewood head, notice long pores and color


closeup of blackwood head- sorry not great but you get the idea. very few pores



Next pic shows the characteristics identifying grain of Dalber.nigra
Real sample very dark. Looks lighter here. Piece of 100 year old chunk sent to me by the late Stephen Kates the cellist.


Lastly old french peg and one that I made from brazilian rosewood

[fiddlecollector]

Heres a section of a trunk (i posted photos of it on here a while ago) i have which which i aquired years ago, i was told it was Mauritius ebony but im not sure ,it has a high resin content making sawing extremely difficult.No noticable pores and mainly jet black.It may be African blackwood mainly because of the trunk shape.It is about 15" across at the widest.

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[Wolfjk]

Hi,

I think the pegs on the violin are more likely to be made of some Asian rosewood than Dalbergia nigra!

What leads you to think that?

I've found the tailpiece that is made from Dalbergia nigra, The last piece I bought. If I can post a photo?
The chinrest is some asian rosewood, a peg of rosewood and a peg of african blackwood.
The second photo is some rosewoods with an african blackwood and an ebony blank.

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[Janito]

Heres a section of a trunk (i posted photos of it on here a while ago) i have which which i aquired years ago, i was told it was Mauritius ebony but im not sure ,

When freshly cut does it have a green tinge and obvious growth rings (but no pores), all of which disappear rapidly when it turns to jet black?

[MeyerFittings]

Heres a section of a trunk (i posted photos of it on here a while ago) i have which which i aquired years ago, i was told it was Mauritius ebony but im not sure ,it has a high resin content making sawing extremely difficult.No noticable pores and mainly jet black.It may be African blackwood mainly because of the trunk shape.It is about 15" across at the widest.

Sometimes it's very hard to tell by looking. Bob, your piece is a puzzler. My first thought was blackwood but it is so bloody uniformly black I changed my mind back to ebony. It's a great piece of wood. I can't remember what the sap wood for ebony looks like. I should look through my stash again. Most pieces of blackwood have a few unregular scattered pores but a really great piece doesn't have many. In the best bow frog ebony the tiny pores are filled with silica and dont show. The only true way that I have found to distinguish some woods is by the smell when you turn, sand or cut it with a saw. Ebony smells musty and a bit like old laundry. Blackwood smells kind of acrid and gums up the saw teeth. Brazilian rosewood smells strongly of cinnamon and also gums the saw but not as badly as blackwood. If you ever turn that piece of mountain mahogany you might notice it smells a bit like strawberries.

[fiddlecollector]

When freshly cut does it have a green tinge and obvious growth rings (but no pores), all of which disappear rapidly when it turns to jet black?

No green tinge,and no visable growth rings,just very slightly lighter bands of colour which quickly darken.The resin content is extremely high ,i ruined a bi-metal 1 " bandblade cutting it.

[MeyerFittings]

No green tinge,and no visable growth rings,just very slightly lighter bands of colour which quickly darken.The resin content is extremely high ,i ruined a bi-metal 1 " bandblade cutting it.

And what did it smell like?

[fiddlecollector]

Sometimes it's very hard to tell by looking. Bob, your piece is a puzzler. My first thought was blackwood but it is so bloody uniformly black I changed my mind back to ebony. It's a great piece of wood. I can't remember what the sap wood for ebony looks like. I should look through my stash again. Most pieces of blackwood have a few unregular scattered pores but a really great piece doesn't have many. In the best bow frog ebony the tiny pores are filled with silica and dont show. The only true way that I have found to distinguish some woods is by the smell when you turn, sand or cut it with a saw. Ebony smells musty and a bit like old laundry. Blackwood smells kind of acrid and gums up the saw teeth. Brazilian rosewood smells strongly of cinnamon and also gums the saw but not as badly as blackwood. If you ever turn that piece of mountain mahogany you might notice it smells a bit like strawberries.

I can only describe the smell of it when freshly worked as unpleasant but cant quite put my finger on what the smell reminds me of. I have discovered one or two random largish pores on certain pieces but not many.It will probably remain a mystery.

[MeyerFittings]

I can only describe the smell of it when freshly worked as unpleasant but cant quite put my finger on what the smell reminds me of. I have discovered one or two random largish pores on certain pieces but not many.It will probably remain a mystery.

I'd categorize both odors as unpleasant but the blackwood is sharp and the ebony smell is moldy. Ebony will dull yout saw teeth but blackwood will gum them up too. I'm serious, for me smell is the best way to identify some woods.

[fiddlecollector]

Hi Eric, i agree with you re:smell. Im always amazed at the range of smells you get when working wood. I was using a type of tropical wood the other day ,that smells of coconut. Back to the question of rosewoods,i ve seen many types and used them,but many look similar and i`d find it hard to believe many people could tell which species of rosewood they are looking at ,especially from a photo.Two pieces cut from adjoining areas of a board could look very different.
I was using as wood called `Anjan` the other day and i thought it was a type of rosewood but it had much smaller pores,so not certain.Im sure the Indians use it for pegs ,etc...
I have a huge collection of wood/ veneer samples ,here is a scan of just 3 rosewoods ,all are different.

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[Tommy]

I took a photo under extremely bright light so some of the grain pattern comes out, although under normal daylight they look black as shoe polish, and very shiny. Would greatly appreciate any info of why they are called "French pegs" or the history behind them.

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[Wolfjk]

I took a photo under extremely bright light so some of the grain pattern comes out, although under normal daylight they look black as shoe polish, and very shiny. Would greatly appreciate any info of why they are called "French pegs" or the history behind them.

Hi Tommy,
These pegs are most likely real brazilian rosewood. "French pegs" have this particular shape. "Swiss pegs" are slightly different, "Hill pegs" are quite different. These are the main varieties. Three of the 57!