43 replies to this topic

[Vojtech Blahout]

Hello,

Maestronet has always been one of the best sources of information on violin making to me. Finally, I`m about to post a question. Somehow, I always knew it would come to this.

I would like to remove an oil varnish from one of my violins. It is the Darnton mastic varnish, which I want to replace by something not so soft. Currently, after a week long exposure in the sun, the violin still gets imprinted by the cloth inside the violin case.

How would you go about removing such varnish so that you wouldnt have to scrape the whole thing down to bare, white wood again?

Thank you anyone for your suggestions.

Vojta

[joerobson]

Hello,

Maestronet has always been one of the best sources of information on violin making to me. Finally, I`m about to post a question. Somehow, I always knew it would come to this.

I would like to remove an oil varnish from one of my violins. It is the Darnton mastic varnish, which I want to replace by something not so soft. Currently, after a week long exposure in the sun, the violin still gets imprinted by the cloth inside the violin case.

How would you go about removing such varnish so that you wouldnt have to scrape the whole thing down to bare, white wood again?

Thank you anyone for your suggestions.

Vojta

Vojta,
What is under the varnish? To remove this varnish first try alcohol on a lint free cloth. The material which is not removed with alcohol should be soluble in turpentine. So follow the alcohol wipe down with turpentine on a lint free cloth.
on we go,
Joe

[Don Noon]

Since I am learning to make and apply varnish, I have also had to do a lot of varnish removal to do it over again. I'm not sure if you're trying to save a ground or not; doesn't seem like a good idea to try that. Commercial strippers like Bix work great. However, they can't get every molecule of the first coatings out of the wood... but they will get most of it.

I'd suggest stripper, and then start over from the ground up. Some old ground will still be in there, so plan something that will match.

[Marc Genevrier]

Don, I don't know the products you use, but all strippers commercially available here require a rinsing step at the end, sometimes with water, to get completely rid off of the stripper itself. Did you ever rinse an unvarnished violin with flowing tap water? I did!
I now do it with alcohol, as suggested by Joe.

[robertdo]

I don't know the answer, but indeed it would be interesting to know. What I can tell is that simply ethanol won't do much. I varnished one instrument with a varnish I had made following M. Darnton recipe and ethanol would not remove anything so to speak. turpentine would probably be more likely but even that is not sure.
this varnish also took quite some time to dry but as M. Darnton insisted, he chose this varnish because it had some of the features that Cremone varnish are supposed to have, and thermoplasticity is one of them.
I varnished my violin about 2 years ago, and even though it's really dry on the touch during winter time, a slight increase in temperature renders it tacky and everytimes I place it on top of a rough surface it imprints. Other than that it's simple to make, quick, and has nice gloss.

[bmccarthy]

Be very careful using a commercial stripper. I used Nitramores, a commercial stripper, on a fiddle recently and although the maple came out perfectly the softer sprcue top was stained from the process. It quickly turns the varnish into a dark gooey mess which caused the staining. Perhaps if you tackle small areas at a time and go very sparingly with the stripper it might be possible to avoid staining, but after my experience I´d be slow to go down that road again, at least on the top anyway.

[joerobson]

Be very careful using a commercial stripper. I used Nitramores, a commercial stripper, on a fiddle recently and although the maple came out perfectly the softer sprcue top was stained from the process. It quickly turns the varnish into a dark gooey mess which caused the staining. Perhaps if you tackle small areas at a time and go very sparingly with the stripper it might be possible to avoid staining, but after my experience I´d be slow to go down that road again, at least on the top anyway.

Brian,
I think this is why we include stripping at every varnish workshop. At some point everyone does it, and done well it causes no harm.
on we go,
Joe

[Berl Mendenhall]

I'm not a big fan of using alcohol to strip fiddles. The reason is too much rubbing. The alcohol dissolves the varnish and you rub it into the end grain. You can end up with a blotchy mess. I've probably striped at least 25 fiddles and I use striper (zip strip, citra strip or what ever). You don't need to hold your fiddle under running water. I just use two paper towels, one fairly wet, and the other much drier. Then I use a dry paper towel. I've never had a problem. Here are some tips on using stripper.

I use a brush to apply the stripper. Just do fairly small sections like a third of the back at a time. Put it on plenty thick an let it set for a few minutes. You'll be able to tell when the varnish is dissolved.


Always use a plastic scraper to remove dissolved varnish. I make them out of the lids of cottage cheese containers. Just cut one one inch by two inches. These work well and don't scratch the fiddle. Don't try steel wool or you'll force the colored varnish into the wood pores. I also use an old tooth brush around scrolls and rib and plate joints.

This will take at least two or three times to get all of the varnish off. Once dissolved and completely removed then you can use steel wool if you like.

This process is going to make a mess. I put paper down to wipe dissolved varnish and gook on. Also ware plastic gloves, Zip strip is not good to get on you and it burns your skin. This process can take a couple of hours and make a mess, so be prepared. Your going to use several paper towels, they get slimy when washing off the fiddle.

I done this several times so it's not a big deal for me. The first time I did this I thought I'll never do that again. That was twenty years ago. Never say never.

Berl

[Don Noon]

Don, I don't know the products you use, but all strippers commercially available here require a rinsing step at the end, sometimes with water, to get completely rid off of the stripper itself. Did you ever rinse an unvarnished violin with flowing tap water? I did!
I now do it with alcohol, as suggested by Joe.

Yes, I omitted that detail. I have been using acetone or MEK for a final wipedown. With lots of ventilation.

I done this several times so it's not a big deal for me. The first time I did this I thought I'll never do that again. That was twenty years ago.

Varnishing sometimes is a disaster, for any number of reasons. Or at least it's an "I can do better than this". My latest fiddle (#10) I stripped the back twice, and the rest of it once. Still not done yet, but I think I can live with what it has now.

[Roger Hargrave]

I have stripped varnish off more times than I care to remember. So far everyone has given good advice, but in order to make a final decision about what to use and how, you need to know how the ground coat will be affected.
With only two exceptions I have always used alcohol for the stripping process. I am not keen on commercial strippers for the reasons others have outlined here. But do not be fooled into thinking that alcohol is fairly safe to work with. Stripping a cello a few years ago I almost ruined my lungs. It took me weeks to get over the terrible asthmatic effect. Alcohol destroys the mucus layer in your lungs and pipes. And, if you breath too much of it it can also impair your judgement when you drive or use knives. So get the right kind of mask and filter even if you are working outside, and also be aware of the explosive nature of alcohol, again even outside, but especially through air extraction units.
If you are having undue trouble removing your varnish with alcohol. Change your varnish. If it removes your ground too easily change your ground.
In my opinion stripping varnishes belongs to the varnishing process like foreplay belongs to sex. It is a necessary part of the finding out process, but it is not required every time. Sometimes you can just do it without needing to strip off.
However, might I suggest, that if you are wanting to get on with selling, (and that is what it is all about), then you do need to avoid doing too many experiments and having too many disasters with your own works. I suggest getting started with a good commercial varnishing system like 'Magister' while slowly developing your own methods. Buy a couple of cheap white fiddles for experimenting. There is NO substitute for a fiddle. Flat bits of wood just do not do the business. That way you will learn about stripping and grounds and varnish without too much personal pain. I have managed to strip and re-varnish cheap fiddles a many as twenty times, (documented). They are worth the investment.

[Ernie Martel]

I recently tried Citristrip and it did a fantastic job...no smearing...just brush it on, let it sit then use a plastic scraper like Berl mentioned...I was very impressed...and for the first time I did'nt have to breathe any nasty fumes...Do yourself a favor and try this stuff.

-Ernie

http://www.wmbarr.co...ip/default.aspx

[robertdo]

since we were talking about removing oil/rosin/mastic varnish I decided to try again on the violin I had varnished this way. I said that I tried once with pure ethanol without much success (but I just tried on a small spot on the scroll and got almost nothing out) but today I used the ethanol you get in pharmacy. It's a 70% ethanol with 0.2% camphor and 0.0002% tartrazine. And it seems to work. I should be able to get most of it. It takes quite a few rags but not too much of ethanol.
Here are 2 pictures of how it looks for the moment (only the back and part of the ribs have been treated for the moment)

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[joerobson]

since we were talking about removing oil/rosin/mastic varnish I decided to try again on the violin I had varnished this way. I said that I tried once with pure ethanol without much success (but I just tried on a small spot on the scroll and got almost nothing out) but today I used the ethanol you get in pharmacy. It's a 70% ethanol with 0.2% camphor and 0.0002% tartrazine. And it seems to work. I should be able to get most of it. It takes quite a few rags but not too much of ethanol.
Here are 2 pictures of how it looks for the moment (only the back and part of the ribs have been treated for the moment)

Roberto,
The camphor is a strong terpene...so in combination with the ethanol it is getting a good bite on this varnish.
The tatrazine is just color...an azo dye known in the States as FD&C Yellow #5. My guess is you would get good result from a mixture of alcohol and turpentine.
on we go,
Joe

[robertdo]

Roberto,
The camphor is a strong terpene...so in combination with the ethanol it is getting a good bite on this varnish.
The tatrazine is just color...an azo dye known in the States as FD&C Yellow #5. My guess is you would get good result from a mixture of alcohol and turpentine.
on we go,
Joe

thanks Joe, I thought indeed that the camphor was making the difference. But it's surprisingly efficient given it's concentration. So I hope it won't affect the wood too much.

[Vojtech Blahout]

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate them. I believe I know enough now to get experimenting.

The ground is highly diluted shellac. And when I think of it now, it was mighty stupid of me not to mention that fact in my initial post.

I assume, to avoid staining, the best method would be to remove just the varnish, not the ground.

I will then try turpentine first because the ground is shellac. If that fails, alcohol as robertdo suggests specifically for M. Darnton`s varnish or alcohol + turpentine (1:1?) as Joe suggests.

And if all that fails I`ll use a stripper on small sections along with a plastic scraper and paper towels, following luthier9010`s advice. It would probably take both the varnish and ground with it, so I assume that would be the last resort option.

Thank you Roger for the wise words. I understand now that using alcohol as a stripper, it is desirable that the ground is the least affected by it. And I`ll definitely finally take look at some of the commercially available systems.

Vojta

[Janito]

I get confused with coat terminologies, so here is my simple-minded view:

- Two key elements of the stripping process are to minimize (i) blotchy penetration of colours and residues into wood, and (ii) to use materials that do not leave residues that could damage wood or affect subsequent varnishing.

For (i) the sealer needs to be resistant to the 'stripper' - the ground and top varnish coats are removable and replaceable.

- So a protein-oil emulsion would serve as a good alcohol/turpentine resistant sealer when applied directly to wood.

Comments?

[Don Noon]

My experience has been that there is no problem with the stripped colored layer getting into the wood, no matter what the sealer/ground is... as long as you don't grind it in with steel wool or similar. Just being careful scraping or wiping it off has been sufficient. The only problem has been when the colored varnish was already in the wood, and even that didn't turn out too badly.

[lyndon]

you guys need to open a strip club!!! one that serves everclear(95% alcohol) and has really good ventilation, definetly a place the wives will want to stay away from......

[Roger Hargrave]

Vojta

You should try using some form of silicate or something similar. Plaster of Paris works very well, if you remove all the heat first by adding way too much water and stirring it continually for about an hour, and then every hour for a day, and then every day for a week. Then you can apply it wet to the fiddle. It should be like white mud. (Keep the rest for next time. Dry it for storage and keep some dry for the next process). Now rub off this wet white mud stuff before it dries (if you have stirred it correctly it will not set) wipe it all off with lint free cloths. Don't leave any on the surface or in corners but make sure that you also rub it in well especially on the edges and on the scroll otherwise it won't seal the wood enough and later the varnish will sink in leaving a dark stain. The fiddle will then dry out and look like a lump of chalk. It's a bit of a shock the first time you do it. Then you apply your oil varnish (without colour). I always apply the first coat of varnish freely letting it sink in before removing the surplus with a lint free cloth, leaving no varnish on the surface. Don't let it sink in too much or it will stain) If you feel it needs it, you can add some dry P of P to the varnish removal cloth from your mix and rub it into suspect areas with the surplus varnish. By now the fiddle will be looking really shitty, but after this coat has dried well, the next coat should go on a treat. However, if varnish is still sinking in in places rub of the varnish again using P of P powder to fill the open pores. This is then your ground coat. Let it dry thoroughly before applying your top coats and abracadabra, you won't believe it. This is a genuine Renascence method of sealing wood. BUT try it on a cheap white fiddle first. And one last warning. If you are not careful with your gluing process it will cause you serious problems. Using a cheap white fiddle with demonstrate this. And that is all I am going to say on this subject.

[Ernie Martel]

Roger

Thank you for putting up this info...it confirms a ground/varnish method that I've read about and been wanting to try...very generous offering!

-Ernie