11 replies to this topic

[vlado]

Question: ff (cross-section) cut vertically or at a certain angle (Fig. 2 and 3). What you see, please?

[jacobsaunders]

Please forgive me for saying that I can`t imagine that anyone understands your question (I don`t)

[robertdo]

On the C&J book there are 3 pictures of (some?) of the way f-holes were cut. Early viols and violins are shown with f-holes that would look like your ct scans (I am not saying this is a very old violin).
they also show a Stainer style, with the cut being vertical (like your upper drawing), and a third drawing where the cut would be more of less perpendicular to the plate and that would correspond more to what Cremonese were doing.

[vlado]

Please forgive me for saying that I can`t imagine that anyone understands your question (I don`t)

Mr. Jacob, I had some technical difficulties. The question is: Are the side opening FF (cross-section - Figure 2 and 3) were cut vertically, or at a certain angle?
What do you think of this?

[Andrew Kochie]

Ive often wondered this myself after some of the CT Scans came out - I came to a personal conclusion after studying some of these videos for some time that originally they were cut perpendicular to the arch, however with age as the plate started shrinking, the edges had more dramatic shrinking than other areas.

I believe that if these f-holes were cut with such a great angle originally that we would have seen the delicate edge on the surface of the top plate wear faster within 200+ years giving f-holes a mottled appearance of being sunken in where the softer parts of the spruce wear faster than the harder reed.

[vlado]

On the C&J book there are 3 pictures of (some?) of the way f-holes were cut. Early viols and violins are shown with f-holes that would look like your ct scans (I am not saying this is a very old violin).
they also show a Stainer style, with the cut being vertical (like your upper drawing), and a third drawing where the cut would be more of less perpendicular to the plate and that would correspond more to what Cremonese were doing.

Robertdo, thanks for your description. On CT scan shows that sometimes there are no sharp edges of the sides ff. Therefore I was not quite sure on how to cut.

[Christopher Jacoby]

Ive often wondered this myself after some of the CT Scans came out - I came to a personal conclusion after studying some of these videos for some time that originally they were cut perpendicular to the arch, however with age as the plate started shrinking, the edges had more dramatic shrinking than other areas.

I believe that if these f-holes were cut with such a great angle originally that we would have seen the delicate edge on the surface of the top plate wear faster within 200+ years giving f-holes a mottled appearance of being sunken in where the softer parts of the spruce wear faster than the harder reed.

Hi, Andrew!
I think on a flat surface, you would be right. I have seen a few American fiddles where this has happened. But ff's on an arch are being pressed upward and outward. Also, think about shrinking spruce, which happens mainly perpendicular to the grain-- the reason why top plates are less wide than back plates on an old instrument. Why would the spruce shrink IN toward the center of the ff hole, and not take the easier path, away from the empty space?
Undercutting is a french tradition, and the Vuillames I've had the pleasure to fiddle with are crisp and proud at every ff hole edge. It is just a matter of schooling, or sometimes laziness. I know that is why I undercut my ff's.

[vlado]

I wanted to ask a question like that. That I had in mind.
Do you think that the original was cut ff vertical, or not?

[vlado]

On the upper outer f hole is visible wear surface.
The same is true of the lower parts of the sides.

[Ratcliffiddles]

On the upper outer f hole is visible wear surface.
The same is true of the lower parts of the sides.

Some of that, especially the varnished side, is wear, done by somebody who should have left the sound post setter alone.

You don’t really get wear on the bass side ff, nor do you get it in the circular holes, so if they are undercut there, that is how they were made.

Some early makers did it, but undercutting is often done to minimize the work on the outline of the ff’s. If you undercut, only a small proportion of the thickness of the table will need to be accurately cut. (I am not saying that is the only reason).
I have plenty of instruments which show fairly drastic undercutting, especially on the inner curve, including 1850 Mittenwald and French 19th century.
Another 1850's Mittenwald.

[vlado]

Some of that, especially the varnished side, is wear, done by somebody who should have left the sound post setter alone.

You don’t really get wear on the bass side ff, nor do you get it in the circular holes, so if they are undercut there, that is how they were made.

Some early makers did it, but undercutting is often done to minimize the work on the outline of the ff’s. If you undercut, only a small proportion of the thickness of the table will need to be accurately cut. (I am not saying that is the only reason).
I have plenty of instruments which show fairly drastic undercutting, especially on the inner curve, including 1850 Mittenwald and French 19th century.
Another 1850's Mittenwald.

Peter, thanks to your reply.

You mention undercutting, especially on the inner curve.
I'll try to draw a picture inner curve (in parallel with CT), for comparison.

[vlado]

FF to the left.
http://img140.images...20630113338.jpg
http://img694.images...20629192945.jpg

FF on the right.
http://img191.images...20630113406.jpg
http://img713.images...20629194217.jpg

The arrows indicate the wear of the lower part of FF.
http://img220.images...20630113251.jpg