33 replies to this topic

[rgwebb6]

I have removed and replaced two tops. Granted these are my violins, so I am a little less particular than if I were working on someone else's, but so far I have had to do nothing to touch-up damaged varnish along the rib/top line. However, I imagine that is not always the case. I am curious about the techniques used to touch-up that area and how bad you have seen the damage get from the removal process. Is this normally not a major problem? Do tops usually come off and go back on pretty cleanly?

[Jeff White]

I have removed and replaced two tops. Granted these are my violins, so I am a little less particular than if I were working on someone else's, but so far I have had to do nothing to touch-up damaged varnish along the rib/top line. However, I imagine that is not always the case. I am curious about the techniques used to touch-up that area and how bad you have seen the damage get from the removal process. Is this normally not a major problem? Do tops usually come off and go back on pretty cleanly?

In general, yes, they are supposed to go on/off easily without much damage. Not always the case, or...you get an instrument that has had some damage due to aggresively taking off th top. Best way is to dive into your supply of pigments/resins/gums etc alcohol solutions and match the color of the area,(mixed with varnish). If there is damage to the underside of the top, that's usually where the touchup is needed, then filling with a sandarac/shellac/copal mixture might be helpful in giving you a level surface. This is much easier before you "reinstall" the top. You won't have to work with a 90 degree edge to fill. This is, usually chips of varnish that come off in the process. If it is an inexpensive instrument, then you could get some premixed touchup varnishes to use, or alter the color to match. Howard Core sells some called touchup varnished in a few colors that are a kind of hybrid between oil and spirit, so they dry kind of slow, but this could be used for lesser instruments. jeff

[jacobsaunders]

The OP asks about new violins. I don`t think I have ever seen any need to remove a top from one of my new violins, but on old ones I often use a mixture of Windsor & Newton water colours & some nut stain, since they remain matt. Useing retouching varnish is awkward, since you can`t rub it down satisfactorly.

[bmccarthy]

Sorry to be a pain in the neck but. . . . . where does he mention new violins? Just because the two violins are his doesn´t mean they´re new. And Dick. . . if they are please keep your mouth shut.

The OP asks about new violins. I don`t think I have ever seen any need to remove a top from one of my new violins,

[jacobsaunders]

Sorry, a misunderstanding on my part.

[Brad Dorsey]

...I am curious about the techniques used to touch-up that area...

I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Often after I reglue a top there are exposed places on the underside of the top edge where there is no varnish. This could be because the varnish was damaged when I (or a previous repairer) removed the top, or it could be because I shortened the ribs, or it could be because I adjusted the position of the top on the ribs.

If I want to improve the appearance of the edge, I use my regular retouching pigments and clear spirit retouching varnish on the places that have no varnish. By doing this I cover up these places so that they blend in fairly well with the old varnish and the dirt that accumulates under the edges of old instruments and there are no glaringly obvious bare spots.

But even after doing this, I can still tell, when I look closely, that the top has been removed. What I would really like to be able to do is make it look like the top has never been removed. On a violin whose top has never been removed, there is a little fillet of varnish over the seam between the ribs and the underside of the top edge. If I were to apply enough coats of retouching varnish to build up the fillet, there would be excess gobs of varnish on the top and the ribs which, as Jacob says, are hard to rub down satisfactorly.

[bmccarthy]

One of Weisshaars restorers told me he´s used shoe polish to blend in the edge. Has anyone tried this ?

[Jerry Lynn]

One of Weisshaars restorers told me he´s used shoe polish to blend in the edge. Has anyone tried this ?

No, but I've seen it. It leaves an undesirable visual aspect, as well a mess when gluing an open seam. When needing to blend in a top that has been removed (neatly) I mix up a color that suits the instrument made up mostly of dry pigments (heavy on earth pigments) mixed in retouch varnish and matting agent. I put in enough matting agent until the mixture just starts to chalk (or if a very shiny instrument, less or no matting agent). Apply conservatively in "bead" form to the seam and quickly follow with my little finger to act as a squigee to take off the excess. No rub out required.

Many times I'll spend a great deal of time removing a top as carefully as I can. Usually the extra time will result in a better job going back on.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

In general, yes, they are supposed to go on/off easily without much damage. Not always the case, or...you get an instrument that has had some damage due to aggresively taking off th top.

Jeff: In my experience, many repair people, and some makers, use glue that is much too strong to glue the top on... which can make it a bear to remove.

But even after doing this, I can still tell, when I look closely, that the top has been removed. What I would really like to be able to do is make it look like the top has never been removed. On a violin whose top has never been removed, there is a little fillet of varnish over the seam between the ribs and the underside of the top edge. If I were to apply enough coats of retouching varnish to build up the fillet, there would be excess gobs of varnish on the top and the ribs which, as Jacob says, are hard to rub down satisfactorly.

Brad; I find that it helps a great deal to make sure one carefully removes that "feather edge" of varnish that inevitably sticks out from the top edge of the ribs before gluing back on the top. If left as is, it makes things very difficult to blend in. Also, careful cleaning before removing the top in the first place helps to ensure one isn't simply touching in dirt over dirt in the end.

One of Weisshaars restorers told me he´s used shoe polish to blend in the edge. Has anyone tried this ?

I've heard of similar stuff (oil paint, etc.) being used to blend things in/add patina.

[Brad Dorsey]

...careful cleaning before removing the top in the first place...

It seems to me that it's a lot easier to clean this area after the top is removed. It's easier to clean the ribs because the top isn't in the way, and it's easier to clean the top because the ribs aren't in the way.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

It seems to me that it's a lot easier to clean this area after the top is removed. It's easier to clean the ribs because the top isn't in the way, and it's easier to clean the top because the ribs aren't in the way.

... and there's a lot more exposed wood, and possibly a few splinters, to avoid.

Brad, I think the question is; "What's the most effective method to ensure a good end result".

A good number of years ago, I was more likely to jump in without employing a thorough, effective, preliminary cleaning process. I've learned from experience the job turns out much better, there are fewer surprises, and my estimates are more accurate if I carefully clean before I jump.

You can always go back and clean again once the instrument is disassembled. A bit of spot cleaning is usually advisable... but it's nice to get the top removed without a bunch of crud in the way. I find I do a neater job when I can actually see what I'm doing.

[Walter O'Bannon]

and how bad you have seen the damage get from the removal process.

I am also curious about this. Many of the tops I have removed so far (the usual rubish - don't be alarmed) have left much to be desired when compared to some photos in books and the Internet. Does it all come down to going in the right direction with your opening knife, denatured alcohol, and taking your time?

[Ken Pollard]

I am also curious about this. Many of the tops I have removed so far (the usual rubish - don't be alarmed) have left much to be desired when compared to some photos in books and the Internet. Does it all come down to going in the right direction with your opening knife, denatured alcohol, and taking your time?

The first top I took off, many years ago, was on a cheap Chinese Skylark violin, and it was my own to butcher. I had read as much as was available at the time, and that info was similar to what you'd find today. It was a mess. Chips and splinters, a real struggle. I got so I could take the tops off reasonably well after a while, but still not pretty, not the way it was described.

Then one day, I got to work on a comparatively nice instrument. The top came right off. No mess, and much quicker. Jeffrey hit the key point in estimation -- too strong of glue. Most, I'd say nearly all, factory instruments I've worked on use far too strong of glue. So if that's what you're working on, you're going to have a fight. Slowing down, right direction, a little alcohol, can help.

The really low-end fiddles, modern, with lacquer (?) finish, I think are impossible to get apart nicely. The finish is quite brittle and very thick.

For those of us making your own fiddles, this is a good point to take heed. Use weakened glue on your tops.

I'll add to those saying thanks to other responders on this thread. Touch-up afterwards is a problem. I've used watercolors followed by clear spirit, but haven't been able to get a convincing "never touched" result. Some good ideas here to try.

[Brad Dorsey]

...I am curious about...how bad you have seen the damage get from the removal process...

The worst I've seen was done by someone using opening blocks and a small hammer to open the seams, which is a technique that I use quite often. This person didn't know how hard to hammer or when to stop hammering and broke off several edges.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I'll add to those saying thanks to other responders on this thread. Touch-up afterwards is a problem. I've used watercolors followed by clear spirit, but haven't been able to get a convincing "never touched" result. Some good ideas here to try.

In my experience, going beyond "wood matching" with watercolor on the exposed or partially exposed wood surfaces spells disaster.

My basic procedure: I try to determine the coating thickness, match the exposed wood as needed, lightly seal the exposed areas, mix appropriate touchup (modified for this purpose and adjusted color intensity to match coating thickness) up. Let it thicken a little and apply it to the deepest & lightest color voids first. Let it shrink. Adjust the color/intensity with a quick wash/glaze if required, re-apply varnish as required to the deep voids and move on to the lesser ones, repeat again as needed, let it dry (almost all the way), level it, add patina as needed...

Doing things this way (preliminary cleaning, prep, build up of the coating, addition of patina) may not be super fast, and may increase the cost of a repair in the end, but it turns out a better job. If you want a fast down & dirty solution, I guess one could always use the brown shoe polish alone.

[Ken Pollard]

In my experience, going beyond "wood matching" with watercolor on the exposed or partially exposed wood surfaces spells disaster.

My basic procedure:....

.... If you want a fast down & dirty solution, I guess one could always use brown shoe polish.

I haven't tried the brown shoe polish. Yet. Do you like the liquid polish or paste? :-)

There is that somewhat darker area along the seam, which is often part of the varnish, that is disrupted when the top is removed. On re-glueing, I'm trying to get that seam to match what is near by, along the back seam.

Time is a problem. Most of my repair work is on student instruments, and although they're happy to let me do varnish touch-up experiments on my own dime, they usually aren't too interested in letting me keep the instrument any longer than is needed to get it 'back on the road.'

I do like to experiment on my own instruments, though, fiddles I've gotten in on trade or outright purchase, so I appreciate the tips.

[skiingfiddler]

But even after doing this, I can still tell, when I look closely, that the top has been removed. What I would really like to be able to do is make it look like the top has never been removed.

Wouldn't a repairer have to fill in that 90 degree angle with varnish between rib and plate overhang in order to make a top look like it's never been off? On the old fiddles I've seen, that absence of pooled varnish in that seam is the indicator that the top has been off, no matter how well the rest of rib and underside of the plate overhang has been touched up. I would think that it would be undesirable to lay so much retouch varnish on that seam to get it to pool over that seam the way the original varnish job would.

[David Burgess]

Going back to Jeffrey's post, that level of care is pretty much what's required on good violins. I do it a little differently, but that's not the point, and why we strive to bring different teachers in to Oberlin.

Ken, my method of using thick linseed oil, combined with oil colors, self-leveling, wouldn't work well at all with violins which need to go out the door right away.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I would think that it would be undesirable to lay so much retouch varnish on that seam to get it to pool over that seam the way the original varnish job would.

In most cases, getting that "look" doesn't take all that much varnish... and is much easier to deal with than built up shoe polish.

The point is, if one is careful and takes their time, one can get this are looking quite good... and there are some cases (starting with a surface that hasn't been buggered) where going the extra mile can be pretty convincing (leave things looking relatively untouched).

[Ken Pollard]

Going back to Jeffrey's post, that level of care is pretty much what's required on good violins. I do it a little differently, but that's not the point, and why we strive to bring different teachers in to Oberlin.

Ken, my method of using thick linseed oil, combined with oil colors, self-leveling, wouldn't work well at all with violins which need to go out the door right away.

Thanks, David. It is nice to have options, a variety of arrows in the quiver. I do get customers who are interested in repairs done all-out, who aren't in a rush. And, as I mentioned, on my own instruments, I have the time. Reading of different methods here is valuable to me. It's nice to know what doesn't work, too.