18 replies to this topic

[carlobartolini]

Don't know if it's a common book , did a search on MN and found no mention of Robert Ingham, so I thought I'd post it, someone may find it interesting.


A few notes on varnishes and fossil resins (1891)


Direct link to his notes on violin varnish - online book

[Bill Yacey]

Thanks Carlo,
That looks like good read.

I had a quick glance through some of the pages and noticed the author made reference to the electrostatic properties of amber, thinking perhaps that had some bearing on the sound quality of an amber varnished instrument. I find it interesting some of the theories from the past, however misguided.

[joerobson]

Don't know if it's a common book , did a search on MN and found no mention of Robert Ingham, so I thought I'd post it, someone may find it interesting.


A few notes on varnishes and fossil resins (1891)


Direct link to his notes on violin varnish - online book

Thanks Carlo. This is an interesting document....typical of the period. Often material of a scientific nature was re-written in a more palatable style. Varnish, resins, and other exotic materials were the 'rage of the age'......Amber varnish can certainly be made to look "like" the cremonese varnish, though we know it was not part of the recipe. Amber varnishing is still used by many violin makers, though I see the trend shifting away from it. It seems popular for guitar and mandolin.
on we go,
Joe

[fiddlewallop]

Hi Joe,

So are you saying that it is better to use a rosin-based varnish, rather than an amber-based varnish?

Perhaps the amber varnishes retard the resonance of the plates?

-FW

[robertdo]

If I remember well simply melting amber requires quite a high temperature (I think someone posted on this topic). And amber is quite hard, maybe too much for a violin?

[joerobson]

If I remember well simply melting amber requires quite a high temperature (I think someone posted on this topic). And amber is quite hard, maybe too much for a violin?

fw & roberto,
Is it better to use amber than a rosin based varnish....that is for the individual maker to decide. Each resin, each varnish, each application method will have differing results. One needs to find out what works and what doesn't ...for you. The scientific analysis of the "cremonese varnish" does not indicate amber as a component.
on we go,
Joe

[FredN]

Don't know if it's a common book , did a search on MN and found no mention of Robert Ingham, so I thought I'd post it, someone may find it interesting.


A few notes on varnishes and fossil resins (1891)


Direct link to his notes on violin varnish - online book

Thanks Carlos- I can't tell you how much time i spent around 20 years ago trying to get those papers when i first tried to learn something about varnishing.
This is reference to another paper published around 1840 that gives you an idea of the varnish industry at that time. Interestingly, the author had been in the business from around 1800, so his mentor goes into the Strad era. This is the reference, hopefully it is available through the internet:

Manufacture of Varnishes. Neil, J. Wilson. 1833. Transactions Royal Society of Arts.49:part2:33-87. It is obvious that copal resin was the main resin of commerce. fred

[carlobartolini]

Thank you all for the comments.

FredN I found it on Google books. Page 33 Chemistry. Thanks, it will be nice reading.

Transactions of the Society instituted at London for the encouragement of arts, manufactures, and commerce, Volume 49


edit - FredN, great book, will need to re-read it, lots of detailed info, I like the "Artist's Virgin Copal" trick of fusing copal at a very moderate fire....and his experiments are great, thanks again.

I also love the passage:

And I am perfectly convinced, from forty years' experience, that the greatest and most essential art belonging to the business of varnish-making consists in the management and regulations of the fire in the gum furnace, so that the gum, from the beginning of it's softening in the gum-pot, and during the whole time of it's fusion, shall be so managed, according to the nature and quality of that particular sort, particularly in increasing the heat, that it shall carry up and out of the pot all or as much of the gas and acid as is possible, which is the most difficult for an inexperienced person to understand, and, indeed, very few think about it.

Edited by carlobartolini, 23 June 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[lyndon]

copal resin is reported to be the secret ingredient of stainers varnish, which in later sources is refered to as basically the same as the cremonese, problem is no one gives any mention of which of the many types of copal we are refering to

also joe you claim modern analysis rules out fossilized amber, how can the analysis distinguish between fossilized resin (amber) and regular resin, wouldnt the ingredients test pretty much the same components

[Michael_Molnar]

I like how this old book is romanticized with drawings. I suspect that there is too much conjecture.

Anyhow, I think serious varnish makers would be wise to stick with Brandmair and Greiner where Joe gets a lot of his info.

[robertdo]

copal resin is reported to be the secret ingredient of stainers varnish, which in later sources is refered to as basically the same as the cremonese, problem is no one gives any mention of which of the many types of copal we are refering to

also joe you claim modern analysis rules out fossilized amber, how can the analysis distinguish between fossilized resin (amber) and regular resin, wouldnt the ingredients test pretty much the same components

I had made a photocopy of an earlier paper (can't seem to find it anymore) from Echard where they were analysing varnishes from some instruments (not only violins) and they were giving a table with about 80 different components, many of which were markers of one type of resin. the varnish of one luth from around 1550 was found to contain mastic, a viol from the 17th century had a varnish composed of dewaxed shellac. In this table there were some components that you find in copal (they were testing copal since it was listed as a resin often used by early luthiers) but not anymore in the resin you get from young trees. Few hundred thousands years make quite a difference even though resin and copal start their life as he same thing.
Since amber is an even older copal I don't think they would confuse amber and resin. But I don't remember if they tested specifically amber.

I will add that in the Stradivarius varnish paper Echard didn't find significant level of copal either (in the varnish).

[lyndon]

IMO the whole mystery of the cremonese varnish would be solved if the undercoat were a harder wear resistant fossil amber varnish(clear) and the surface colour coat was a traditional resin/oil varnish of which we are pretty knowledgable, im not sure the people who tested the varnish were seperately testing the ground coat, or mixing all the layers together, or only testing the surface colour coat.....

[robertdo]

On a review paper Echard indicates that during an oral communication Baese reported the presence of succinic acid in varnish samples (which varnish is not indicated) together with drying oil and diterpenoides. this was attributed to "fused Baltic amber". But so far this result was not confirmed. the communication was published in J violin Soc Am in 1986. Maybe some people have access to this this journal

[carlobartolini]

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[fiddlewallop]

I also love the passage:

And I am perfectly convinced, from forty years' experience, that the greatest and most essential art belonging to the business of varnish-making consists in the management and regulations of the fire in the gum furnace, so that the gum, from the beginning of it's softening in the gum-pot, and during the whole time of it's fusion, shall be so managed, according to the nature and quality of that particular sort, particularly in increasing the heat, that it shall carry up and out of the pot all or as much of the gas and acid as is possible, which is the most difficult for an inexperienced person to understand, and, indeed, very few think about it.

That's one helluva sentence!

[FredN]

Just found two interesting books from XVIII century

Tratado de barnizes y charoles - 1735

Trattenimenti sulle vernici, ed altre materie utili, e dilettevoli sparse nelle opere di molti accreditati autori - 1788

Hi Carlos- I hate to bother you, but i don't know how to change the language to english when opening up your link to that paper. Thanks. fred

[carlobartolini]

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[FredN]

Sorry Fred, the 1st book is in spanish and the second one in italian, I'm reading the italian at the moment, lots of interesting stuff since it was first published in Ravenna in 1768.

I tried inserting the ling to the plain text file on google translate but it's not good. The problem is mostly with the letter " s " that looks like " ∫ " and the text convertor mistakes it or an " f " it, so the translator gets completely lost.

I tried to find english translations of Francesco Agricola's book, but no luck yet.

I'll think, maybe I'll have an idea....or if you try the translator and find something interesting I can translate a specific part for you.

google traitor translator

Sorry Carlos for not bein more specific, I was referring to the varnish reference I sent to Maestronet that you found the link to it on the internet. I think I'm showing how dumb i am in not just typing the reference myself into Search- fred

[carlobartolini]

Sorry Carlos for not bein more specific, I was referring to the varnish reference I sent to Maestronet that you found the link to it on the internet. I think I'm showing how dumb i am in not just typing the reference myself into Search- fred

Sorry Fred, for not understanding at first, I was so happy reading the italian book that I understood it all wrong, and sorry for not realizing that the google books link was in portuguese, I've fixed it already. Great book, thanks, lots of great info, will have to read it a few times.

Transactions of the Society instituted at London for the encouragement of arts, manufactures, and commerce, Volume 49