25 replies to this topic

[violins88]

I found this link on a guitarmakers forum. Apparently some people bake spruce. Just thought Don Noon and others might be interested.

[Wm. Johnston]

The guys over on MIMF forum have been using processed wood too and have had several discussions about it. The degree of processing can vary from a little bit of heat to help make sure things are dry and stable to lots of heat and moisture in order to really change the wood.

[Michael_Molnar]

On this subject I have only an opinion, not research data. I suspect that the cycling of temperature and humidity leads to superior wood. This is what we mean by seasoned wood. For that reason I store my tonewood in my attic that is airy. I like the way the wood looks, feels, and sounds over the years. I think the flow of air is also key in carrying off volatiles.

Perhaps Don et al. should investigate cycling the ambient air temperature and humidity. Then again, if I know him, he's doing it or even done it.

Mike

[violins88]

On this subject I have only an opinion, not research data. I suspect that the cycling of temperature and humidity leads to superior wood. This is what we mean by seasoned wood. For that reason I store my tonewood in my attic that is airy. I like the way the wood looks, feels, and sounds over the years. I think the flow of air is also key in carrying off volatiles.

Perhaps Don et al. should investigate cycling the ambient air temperature and humidity. Then again, if I know him, he's doing it or even done it.

Mike

Mike,
I agree. Today I placed my gorgeous, dense (sg 0.68) maple, which is less than 2 years old, in the hot cab of my truck. The temp was probably 45 C inside. When I opened the truck, the wood had obviously warped. I will check the density after the end of summer.

[bmccarthy]

Maybe if the temperature was controlled and increased gradually the wood might not warp like it did.

Mike,
I agree. Today I placed my gorgeous, dense (sg 0.68) maple, which is less than 2 years old, in the hot cab of my truck. The temp was probably 45 C inside. When I opened the truck, the wood had obviously warped. I will check the density after the end of summer.

[Christopher Jacoby]

We talked at the VMSA about Vuillame kiln-treating his wood. If you are going to do it, re-seal the endgrain, so that the moisture can't bake out too fast, a la your truck experience, violins88.

[Michael_Molnar]

Yes. Sealing the ends isn't a bad idea, but the peak temperature is key.

I was told (and follow that Canon Law) that maple shall not exceed 150F and spruce 180F. Go much beyond those limits and you will have a pretzel and eternal damnation.

However, my point is that I would encourage someone to look into cycling temperature and humidity. It will be a long term project for sure. I am talking about normal seasonal conditions, nothing extreme (like in North Carolina.)

[Christopher Jacoby]

Michael, you try it in North Carolina, I'll try it here in Death Valley, and we'll take the average of all results!

[Michael_Molnar]

I'm in New Jersey where the temperatures and humidity are not insane (except for today ). Actually, in NV you just might want to cycle the test wood between your freezer and outside.

[Christopher Jacoby]

interesting...

[Don Noon]

Perhaps Don et al. should investigate cycling the ambient air temperature and humidity. Then again, if I know him, he's doing it or even done it.

Neither of those... I only thought about it. I see a possible advantage vs. a stable temperature and humidity, in that there could be some pumping action to circulate hemicellulose breakdown products out of the wood. I prefer the speed and simplicity of a single, really severe cycle. I did try multiple severe cycles, and nothing improved.

Maybe if the temperature was controlled and increased gradually the wood might not warp like it did.

Moisture content is the key factor. In a hot car, the relative humidity will be extremely low, and moisture loss from the surface of the wood will be extremely rapid. Very slow changes will definitely help.

I was told (and follow that Canon Law) that maple shall not exceed 150F and spruce 180F. Go much beyond those limits and you will have a pretzel and eternal damnation.

I go way beyond those limits, as you are probably aware. I have cooked up some pretzels in early experiments, but with very slow rates of change, and proper control of vapor pressure, warping has not been a problem. Sure, there is some shrinkage and some slight warpage (primarily in maple), but I don't think it's any more than you'd get with 50 years in your attic. Maybe even less.
I'm looking forward to eternal damnation... the wood there is likely to be extremely well seasoned.

[stephen maloney]

What about microwaving wood (obviously in a dedicated, industrial size appliance) to make a better sound? I have a luthier friend who does that (in a regular microwave) to bridges and he swears by it. I know that some turners do that with bowls as well, even with just finished pieces.

[Don Noon]

Microwaving came up some time ago in another thread. It's too uncontrolled for my tastes... you don't really know what temperatures you're getting inside the wood, and it can get really hot in there. In my testing, the maple was scorched black inside, but looked OK on the outside. I suppose you could use very low settings, and it might do something... but I don't think it's the best thing to do.

[jezzupe]

What about microwaving wood (obviously in a dedicated, industrial size appliance) to make a better sound? I have a luthier friend who does that (in a regular microwave) to bridges and he swears by it. I know that some turners do that with bowls as well, even with just finished pieces.

I know someone that does that

Microwaving is a "acquired" thing that takes time to understand, mostly based on the variations in microwaves....and the addition of water spraying must be incorporated...long defrost cycles on the lowest settings with constant stopping,misting and rotating....its the fly fishing of the wood cooking world....It is not done as Dons slow crock pot method....As I have said before, those that truly understand how Plato process's and other thermal and "shock" treatment effect wood understand that what Don does gives you "bruised apples" what I do gives you "popcorn"

[joerobson]

I know someone that does that

Microwaving is a "acquired" thing that takes time to understand, mostly based on the variations in microwaves....and the addition of water spraying must be incorporated...long defrost cycles on the lowest settings with constant stopping,misting and rotating....its the fly fishing of the wood cooking world....It is not done as Dons slow crock pot method....As I have said before, those that truly understand how Plato process's and other thermal and "shock" treatment effect wood understand that what Don does gives you "bruised apples" what I do gives you "popcorn"

There was, for a time, the fashion of baking the spruce to remove the resinous materials..wrong-headed in my opinion...is this still done?
on we go,
Joe

[Don Noon]

Joe,
In the January 2012 Strad issue article of wood treatments, I was somewhat surprised how many makers bake wood to some degree or another.
So, definitely yes, it is still done.

[Bill Yacey]

There was, for a time, the fashion of baking the spruce to remove the resinous materials..wrong-headed in my opinion...is this still done?
on we go,
Joe

I can't see that as a help in removing the resin content, volatile oils yes, but the resin will remain. The only way I know is to soak the wood in a solvent like alcohol, acetone, laquer thinner, etc., and even then, it won't remove all the resin.

[robertdo]

I once put a 3-4 mm thick piece of spruce in my microwave at full power (850W) for less than 30s. I didn't pay attention until I smelt burning. the piece of spruce was all black. this definitely would need to be monitored and optimised...

[joerobson]

Joe,
In the January 2012 Strad issue article of wood treatments, I was somewhat surprised how many makers bake wood to some degree or another.
So, definitely yes, it is still done.

Don,
I think there are also those who boil the spruce....also trying to remove material I think they should be keeping.
Joe

[bmccarthy]

Is leaving an unvarnished instrument in a UV box for long periods not a form of baking or in the sun for that matter?