27 replies to this topic

[Rique]

Hello, everybody. ;-)

Well, straight to the topic, here's my problem:

My teacher (who, by the way, is a dear friend and great musical peer) offered to sell one of his violins, from his very personal collection. The instrument is said to be a Vuillaume, made obviously in Paris, France. I fell in love with the instrument the moment I set my eyes on it. The tone is amazing and it feels really comfortable to play it. However, as I made a true effort to read the label, I could see that it "dates" back to 1814.

Now, as far as I know, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume started to truly make violins around the 1820's. I believe that in 1814 he wasn't even in Paris, what makes this instrument here a mere copy, right?

I would like to know what kind of documents I could expect from my teacher proving the instrument's origin. Are there any certificates I could ask to see?

I know that during Vuillaume's high time many other luthiers adopted his name, but all the copies I could see on the web had no dates on their tags, so why would this specific copy carry the weird date of 1814?

Please let me know what you think I kinda need to figer out how to go about the whole thing.

I'm attaching some pictures.

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...erallfront.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...erallfront.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...verallBack.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...verallBack.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...rent=0-Tag.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...erde/0-Tag.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...nt=3-holes.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...de/3-holes.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...Scrollback.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...Scrollback.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s252.photobuc...-cornertop.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i252.photobuc...-cornertop.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[fiddlewallop]

I am no expert on violin identification, but it would be hard for me to swallow that Vuillaume carved that scroll. It looks quite amateurish to me. With that being said, he did have to start somewhere! If it was built in 1814, he would have been 16 years old. However, he didn't arrive in Paris until 1818. He didn't join Simon Lété's workshop until 1821. So the label definitely seems suspect.

[robertdo]

I can't seem to be able to see the pictures, only some code lines. It's not a problem because I have no expertise, but the people able to really help you might have the same problem.
One thing you can guess yourself however is that real Vuillaume are usually very expensive.

[DGerald StephenR]

Not a Vuillaume...

[Christopher Jacoby]

Nope. But if you love it, it shouldn't matter-- work out a fair price!

[Walter O'Bannon]

I think it's safe to say it's from Markneukirchen or Schönbach. I wouldn't pursue any papers. Just take it to a shop and have them give you a quote to fix the neck correctly before you exchange any money.

[Ratcliffiddles]

Hello, everybody. ;-)


My teacher (who, by the way, is a dear friend and great musical peer) offered to sell one of his violins, from his very personal collection.

That sounds so sadly familiar...

Obviously nothing to do with Vuillaume, and he knows it, German violin, Schoenbach, 1900.

What silly price , or "special friend's price" is he asking?

sorry to be cynical, but I have heard similar stories before...

[skiingfiddler]

I can't seem to be able to see the pictures, only some code lines. It's not a problem because I have no expertise, but the people able to really help you might have the same problem.

I have the same problem of not seeing images, but code lines instead. And that occurs on both a Mac and a Microsoft PC. Wonder what's going on.

[baroquecello]

Recently some teacher here tried to sell a "great" violin for 20.000 Euros to a student of his. The student took it to an appraised who said that it was worth 5000 tops. Watch out, I'm not saying your teacher is doing the same with you, I'm just telling you not to go on thin ice. Teachers have been known to make use of the trust their students put into them.

[David Burgess]

If you love the violin, take it to an expert, get an appraisal and repair estimate, and negotiate from there.
Unfortunately, great teachers and players are not necessarily violin experts, good as their intentions may be.

[stephen maloney]

Nope. But if you love it, it shouldn't matter.

It won't sound "superb" anymore, now that it isn't a Carcassi.

Sorry, wrong thread and flagrant plagiarism.

[Rique]

Hello, everybody!

Well, I do take into consideration all that you have said. I never believed it was a true Vuillaume, of course. The date of the making, for a start, already tells something's up. But still, you probably imagine how intrigued and curious I am to know the real origin of this instrument.

The price my teacher is asking is relatively low... In dollars, probably around US$5,000 or maybe US$4,900. It's not that much, which also gave me a pretty clear idea that this is NOT an actual Vuillaume.

Anyway, thank you very much for your replies and for taking your time to look at the pictures.

[Rique]

It won't sound "superb" anymore, now that it isn't a Carcassi.

Sorry, wrong thread and flagrant plagiarism.

And actually, it still sounds superb - not that I am a true expert, but it really feels comfortable to play it. I don't really care who built it, I'd say I more interested in knowing where and when it was made.


Cheers,


Henrique

[skiingfiddler]

Given that screw in the neck button, you would definitely want to get an estimate for a proper restoration.

[Rique]

Are these the images?

I extracted an http address for the first image from the first line of code in the original post. There's more there than the images of the fiddle. Hope that's ok. I don't know how to restrict the access to just the 14 violin images.

You would definitely want to get an estimate for restoration.

No worries. =)

[Christopher Jacoby]

It won't sound "superb" anymore, now that it isn't a Carcassi.

Sorry, wrong thread and flagrant plagiarism.

No longer Seraphim, the tone still flies to heaven(?)

[stephen maloney]

The price my teacher is asking is US$5,000, which also gave me a pretty clear idea that this is NOT an actual Vuillaume.

You can probably find a better violin, in better condition on eBay any day of the week for 10% of what your teacher is asking you to pay and you won't need a screwdriver. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying -- I am not in any way suggesting that your teacher is trying to rip you off, because that would represent a hasty rush to judgment and would be completely unfair. I'm saying keep your options open and sleep with many women play many instruments before committing. There is an excellent Vuillaume we discussed in another thread and I'm pretty sure the seller will take 20% off his asking.

[skiingfiddler]

If you love the violin, take it to an expert, get an appraisal and repair estimate, and negotiate from there.
Unfortunately, great teachers and players are not necessarily violin experts, good as their intentions may be.

Rique,

Follow David Burgess's advice.

Repairing that neck and button may be a bigger expense than one might think.

[fiddlewallop]

Steverino, is it this post:

http://www.maestrone...=1

What's up with the asymmetrical scroll? Is he making the scroll like this in an attempt to copy DG? DG may have a reputation of being a "sloppy" maker, but I thought his scrolls were more symmetrical than this.

[stephen maloney]

Steverino, is it this post:

http://www.maestrone...=1

What's up with the asymmetrical scroll? Is he making the scroll like this in an attempt to copy DG? DG may have a reputation of being a "sloppy" maker, but I thought his scrolls were more symmetrical than this.

Hi, the link you posted brought me back to this thread but it's another quote from Jacob Saunders. I take it you don't like the scroll.
I think it's a masterpiece but what do I know (not much). Definitely evokes del Gesu. Imitation taken to an extreme? I heard JB was heavy into absinthe at the time.