167 replies to this topic

[carl stross]

With all the conflicting opinions that fly around it would be fantastic to be able to hear a set of recordings like this...

Yes it would be fantastic.

[Muswell]

I don't wish to take sides just to observe that if this were intended as a scientific or engineering trial you would probably want the tests to be double blind, in that neither the player nor the listener knew whether an adjustment had been made, you would want a decent sample size and maybe a rating of the magnitude of change and the significance level of the result..i.e the probability that the observed result had been caused by chance. Plus I'm sure a statistician could add a whole lot more.

[carl stross]

Carl, you could do better than to flail about wildly, with little idea of what you're talking about. The writing style and the content remind me of someone else here.

Of course we took steps to try to differentiate between actual sound, and other influences, such as Rene's accent and personality. I considered that to be a basic part of my job. It doesn't serve attendees if I bring back teachers who can't get real results.

One of the ways we did this was to record before and after an adjustment, let some time elapse, and then play back loops of these recordings in various orders, with the order unknown to the listeners. Nothing but the music. No French accent. I wouldn't have put my a$$ on the line, saying Rene got results, without having done things like this to try to separate real results from psychological factors. We actually took it far enough that one of his former employees took me aside for a little talk, quite offended by the level to which we required Rene to prove himself.

I have no idea what you mean by suggesting that we discovered
"that in a large hall a violin's spectrum and phase relations are completely different from a small room".
There was no such "discovery". It was something we already knew, and that's one reason why adjustment progressions were done in both a room and a hall, to validate the process in more than one environment.


It sounds like you have the workshop I directed confused with some other workshop or group.

It's kind of sad that when some people haven't been involved with the people who can get results, or don't get results themselves, they conclude that the results must not be real. It's much more productive to learn.

Actually, we still have the sound files from these adjustments, and meticulous notes to go with them, so maybe it would be fun to play them for a group at one of the conventions, and let you eat some crow. If you can't hear the difference, or hear an improvement, I'll guarantee that most other people in the room will be able to.
I'd put some up here or on my server so others can judge for themselves, but they are huge uncompressed files.

David, give us some of the sound files and the meticulous notes. Are we talking "ajustements" by the tenth of mm or by the cm ?
'cause for the later I'd have to accept defeat....

Basicaly, how did you guys, bright as you are, ABSOLUTELY ELIMINATED the fact that Morel's tinkering did not simply make the fit better ? Because if you didn't this entire piece of "Research" comes to nothing.

The s/p is a simple mechanical device with a couple of simple functions. Violins are built on close enough lines for the post to have an almost standard position. FIT is of paramount importance and whomever thinks differently needs his hearing checked.
Small deviations from the standard position will will have an effect on the intensity of various frequencies and their PHASE but as tastes differ one needs to accept there is no unique best spot.

Unless it simply fits better there....

[David Burgess]

David, give us some of the sound files and the meticulous notes. Are we talking "ajustements" by the tenth of mm or by the cm ?

If you will commit to being to being at the next VSA convention, and there is enough other interest, I'll make an effort to get it onto the agenda. I think it would be much more valuable, and a better use of my time (and Pasewicz's time, he's the one with the notes) to present this to a group, listening to uncompressed files, in the same room, and through the same sound system.

Sorry, I'm not making a living unless I'm making violins.

The s/p is a simple mechanical device with a couple of simple functions. Violins are built on close enough lines for the post to have an almost standard position.

I take it that you've experimented enough with non-standard positions, on enough different instruments, to know this for sure?

Back graduation patterns and stiffnesses are all over the place. Do you really believe that "an almost standard" post position on the back works best for all, including one where a back is 2.7mm thick at the standard post position, and another where it is 4.7mm thick?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Carl.... You a 'cellist?

[vclatl]

Carl.... You a 'cellist?

Hey hey, that hurts!

[vclatl]

Yes, Rene could really produce results.

Of the various players we brought in from the Detroit Symphony and the Cleveland Orchestra, there was only one case where Rene's improvements were judged shaky or nonexistent. And I believe I know adjusters who are better than Rene.

David, when you can pull yourself away from your workbench for 5 minutes please give us 3 names and contact info. I'll put you on my Zingerman's Christmas list.

I know you're obsessed with quality, but nonetheless your Webpage won't let me 'contact' you privately.

[lyndon]

well as carl himself has told us he has "fit" over a thousand soundposts, averaging one every three days, but as his comments point out he hasnt fit near as many soundposts to the standards of top builders like david/jefferey, in fact we have to wonder if he was just sticking lengths of wood in there and not concerning himself with the hard stuff, like perfect fit.....

[David Burgess]

David, when you can pull yourself away from your workbench for 5 minutes please give us 3 names and contact info. I'll put you on my Zingerman's Christmas list.

I know you're obsessed with quality, but nonetheless your Webpage won't let me 'contact' you privately.

LeMaster, my phone is 734 668-7803.
The email isn't on my web site because I didn't have time to deal with all the spams, "I found a Strad" emails, repair inquiries, rental inquiries, people who wanted a quote on a case or an E-sting... all the stuff I don't do. For some reason people are much more selective about using the phone.

[vclatl]

LeMaster, my phone is 734 668-7803.
The email isn't on my web site because I didn't have time to deal with all the spams, "I found a Strad" emails, repair inquiries, rental inquiries, people who wanted a quote on a case or an E-sting... all the stuff I don't do. For some reason people are much more selective about using the phone.

Understood, those E-stings can take all the fun out of life. Thanks, I'll try to call when you don't have your hands in a pot of glue.

[carl stross]

If you will commit to being to being at the next VSA convention, and there is enough other interest, I'll make an effort to get it onto the agenda. I think it would be much more valuable, and a better use of my time (and Pasewicz's time, he's the one with the notes) to present this to a group, listening to uncompressed files, in the same room, and through the same sound system.

Sorry, I'm not making a living unless I'm making violins.


I take it that you've experimented enough with non-standard positions, on enough different instruments, to know this for sure?

Back graduation patterns and stiffnesses are all over the place. Do you really believe that "an almost standard" post position on the back works best for all, including one where a back is 2.7mm thick at the standard post position, and another where it is 4.7mm thick?

No, can't commit to that. All I am interested is what was Morel's system in other words what was he listening for in order to decide if the post fits well AND were should be moved in order to hit the sweet spot. Can you tell us that ? Must we take an oath of secrecy ? Blood curling rituals, etc ...

As to the 2nd point I have no experience with non standard positions - I tried but me arthritis prohibits. I have no interest in violins which are non standard - life's too short and exemplifing with the exceptional won't help me.

In a violin variations of stiffness and weight are compensated nicely by the curvature of the plates and the post needs to maintain a certain ratio which basically decides it's position too very close variation . At least in well made violins. As the local stiffness varies with the CUBE of thickness we should see the s/p all over a much larger area. ANd we don't.

Let me see, do we know a THICK DG and a THIN Strad with the posts in almost identical place ? ( posts fitted by decent restores...)

[David Burgess]

In a violin variations of stiffness and weight are compensated nicely by the curvature of the plates and the post needs to maintain a certain ratio which basically decides it's position too very close variation . At least in well made violins. As the local stiffness varies with the CUBE of thickness we should see the s/p all over a much larger area. ANd we don't.

Really? Are you talking about theoretical violins, or theoretically ideal violins, or real violins?
In the case of real violins, it's often possible to find a "non-standard" post position on the back which works quite well, better than the "standard" it came in with. I think you'd see it more often, except that people tend to get stuck on some didactic set of rules, and never even investigate other possibilities.

I've mentioned this a few times before, but Doug Martin has played a big role in showing how silly some of our sacred rules are, with his wildly unconventional fiddles, which can sound pretty darned good side-by-side with conventional fiddles of merit.

If one doesn't get out and experience some things like that, it's easy to get stuck while tromping around in ones own poo.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hey hey, that hurts!

Really... It was just an honest question!

[Jeffrey Holmes]

The s/p is a simple mechanical device with a couple of simple functions. Violins are built on close enough lines for the post to have an almost standard position.

Ummm... I recall seing a few very old Tyrolian and German mechanical drawings in which the "standard" position of the soundpost, as they saw it, was significantly different that what we think of as "standard" today. Good thing to see. Makes one think before accepting the "way things are".

[carl stross]

Really? Are you talking about theoretical violins, or theoretically ideal violins, or real violins?
In the case of real violins, it's often possible to find a "non-standard" post position on the back which works quite well, better than the "standard" it came in with. I think you'd see it more often, except that people tend to get stuck on some didactic set of rules, and never even investigate other possibilities.

I've mentioned this a few times before, but Doug Martin has played a big role in showing how silly some of our sacred rules are, with his wildly unconventional fiddles, which can sound pretty darned good side-by-side with conventional fiddles of merit.

I think I've covered that ( type of violin ).

You said that Renee Morel demoed his system of adjusting the s/p position. I believe ( wrongly it seems ) that such tinkering around standard position has small influence over some 4 octaves, being FAR outwighed by the need to have a PERFECT fit. More so, I believe a tipical violin ( like you make ) is inherently designed to receive the s/p in the standard position ( that's were you put it ). I might be wrong, of course.

I also believe that making micro adjustments of the s/p is a great marketing ploy. Akin to those two blokes who shaved a bridge until there copy sounded more like the original.

Now, again. what was Morel's system ? He listen to WHAT ? Heard WHAT ? And did WHAT ? You were there, organised the thing, I have to suppose that if it was of any importance you will remember. Or he forgot to explain AGAIN ?

Can you tell us ?

Let me make it easier : how did Morel know when the s/p is too much to the W ?

[vclatl]

Really... It was just an honest question!

I'd guess violist...!

[Evan Smith]

Seems to me that soundpost adjustment is the final adjustment.

It seems to me that before the soundpost will render it's influnce properly,
the bridge must be properly fit and tuned to the fiddle.
Which includes string tension, fingerboard projection,saddle height,tailpiece resonances,chinrest weight,ect..
I am not saying that all this has to be done every time you adjust a post,,
I am saying that in the process of a soundpost adjustment the more variables that can be controled,,,
the more reliable and predictable will be the result.
If there are sources of out of phase noise in the signal, it can be impossible to find a spot to settle upon if
you are only looking for sweetness.
Proper tension is crucial to playability,,tension of the post and of the strings.
The e string shouldn't feel too tight.

The post should be cleanly and squarely cut and fit well.

If you find that the post ends up in a slightly strange place,,,,(assuming all other variables are covered)
and if the post works at that strange place,,you can't be sure that it will still work there in a week.
As the plates begin to deform to the post,,, it will settle in and change somewhat.
So instead of leaving it that way,,, a new post needs to be cut to fit properly at that place.

But if you cut a post at your final destination,,to fit cleanly and properly,,
The settling in time will be greatly reduced and you can have confidence that it will remain fairly stable in the future.
But if the violin has been apart,,new ,,or unstrung for a while,,I like to throw a post in it for a while before getting serious about it.

east ,,west gives string balence,,north south gives,,responce and focus,,,or mush/stiffness.open/closed
Post tension gives,responce,/focus,mush/ stiffness,open/closed nasel/hollow.

If the D doen't match the brillence of the A You could move the post toward the D,,But then if the post is already tensioned at the low side of acceptable,,and you think this is the fix,you would need to cut a new post.
But just mabe moving the bridge a titch might give you what you want.
or just mabe the A string needs to come down in the bridge .5mm HUMMMM....
mabe some appendage on the fiddle is gobbeling up the harmonic stack on D...Hummm.....

You have to decide whether or not the difference was caused by the change in post tension or the placement, if you move toword the c-bout with the bottom,,you have also changed the tension,,ect,,,

This may seem trite,,but I do not understand much of the dialogue of this thread,,

Lots of possiablities,,NOTHING takes the place of an education and experience.
the sweet spot on a fiddle will include the fundamental with harmonics,,,A-0 and a healthy dose of the longitudinal hz.,,
the bridge and string tension can really mess this up,,or greatly improve it.

I have watched Ed Campbell do 100's of demonstration setups, for 20 years,,with 10 to 25 people present, some great players,some great violins and some almost garbage violins,,and consistently produce a sound that is responsive ,,pleasing,,and very playable.
When everything is right and properly fitted,,,a simple adjustment makes an amazing amount of difference in sound,,and or playability..

It seems that Roger Hargraves post was interpeded to mean that a poorly fitting sound post doesn't matter.
Yet he repetes himself about the nesscessity of an exact fit. And all of the important elements of soundposttisses.
I have read everything that I can find that he has written,,and It amazes me that he will take his time to get on here and relay some info,,,I certainly bow in his general direction,,


And Mr,,Burgess aka,dinky member,,keeps repeteing himself,,,,,and repeteing,,,,,will you listen ?


Sound posts are not for sissies,,,lots of guys make fiddles,,
very few can set them up.

Evan


http://www.fiddlehack.com

[COB3]

I think I've covered that ( type of violin ).

You said that Renee Morel demoed his system of adjusting the s/p position. I believe ( wrongly it seems ) that such tinkering around standard position has small influence over some 4 octaves, being FAR outwighed by the need to have a PERFECT fit. More so, I believe a tipical violin ( like you make ) is inherently designed to receive the s/p in the standard position ( that's were you put it ). I might be wrong, of course.

I also believe that making micro adjustments of the s/p is a great marketing ploy. Akin to those two blokes who shaved a bridge until there copy sounded more like the original.

Now, again. what was Morel's system ? He listen to WHAT ? Heard WHAT ? And did WHAT ? You were there, organised the thing, I have to suppose that if it was of any importance you will remember. Or he forgot to explain AGAIN ?

Can you tell us ?

Let me make it easier : how did Morel know when the s/p is too much to the W ?

You know, Carl;

I don't make any claims to expertise as you seem to imply about yourself... but I was there for some of those demonstrations, and could appreciate the touch of a master, even though I don't pretend to be able to duplicate or explain it.

Rene Morel was a real gem, and it is a crying shame we have lost him. I wish I could have spent more time learning from him.

You would do well to dial back the heckling. It is at best disrespectful, and, more to the point, fairly foolish-sounding.

I think you are probably not a certified fool, so I take the risk of incurring your ire in order to admonish the blatantly unfriendly behavior. I think it is counter-productive.

[David Burgess]

You said that Renee Morel demoed his system of adjusting the s/p position. I believe ( wrongly it seems ) that such tinkering around standard position has small influence over some 4 octaves, being FAR outwighed by the need to have a PERFECT fit. More so, I believe a tipical violin ( like you make ) is inherently designed to receive the s/p in the standard position ( that's were you put it ). I might be wrong, of course.

I also believe that making micro adjustments of the s/p is a great marketing ploy. Akin to those two blokes who shaved a bridge until there copy sounded more like the original.

Now, again. what was Morel's system ? He listen to WHAT ? Heard WHAT ? And did WHAT ? You were there, organised the thing, I have to suppose that if it was of any importance you will remember. Or he forgot to explain AGAIN ?

Sigh

Why oh why do I often feel obligated to answer questions here? It's probably an indication of some deep-seated personal problem.

Let me make it easier : how did Morel know when the s/p is too much to the W ?

I believe that he mostly was able to hear it, with some contribution from visually observing how the musician played. He also engaged the players in dialogue about what the instrument was doing, and what they wanted it to do, but the terminology they used wasn't standardized or consistent (sometimes opposite terms were used by different musicians for the same thing), so that's why I believe he mostly heard it.

If this is accurate, I think it's something which needs to be learned from exposure and experience, with examples in hand, and not something which can be taught with a few paragraphs or pages or chapters of text. If we could even begin to accurately communicate what "good violin sound" is, using text, maybe that would be the first step toward writing something meaningful about soundpost adjustment.

Regarding my limited experience of Rene doing soundpost adjustments, I will enthusiastically defer to those who spent years working in his shop. There are at least two who are occasional posters here. One called me early this morning, and the gist was, "Who the phuck is this Stross guy, and what's up with his garbage?" I have not yet encountered anyone who worked in his shop who believed that his adjustments were BS. All I've encountered so far is former employees who have high respect for him.

That's not to say that they haven't gone off on tangents, or made improvements, but students who eventually go beyond what they've been taught are the mark of an exceptional teacher, versus a control freak.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I think a proper tonal adjustment of a violin can not be done very fast unless it has a very obvious problem. On any instrument of value it is not wise to drag the post around with the strings at full tension...this will deform the contact area of the belly and quite likely cause damage and result in an imperfect fit. Taking tension off the strings has a tonal effect in itself I would normally want a week or two to take into account the real life variables.