152 replies to this topic

[JSully]

You don't have to believe in IQ tests to know that half the population is below average. And they all get to vote. I find that discouraging, all on its own.

I'm surprised one of the more active or adversarial pedants hasn't already pointed out that the median and average are two separate things already. It's been days!

[La Folia]

Good point. The median and mean are different. But are they significantly different in this instance? Keep in mind the roundoff error that is implicit in the fraction "one half".

--From one pedant to another.

[Bill Yacey]

Some of them are so far down the ladder that they think they're on top. These are the guys that you read about in the papers when they decide to take a detour off a 30 MPH roadway while doing 140 MPH and plowing their new motorcycle into retaining wall.

The ones that perchance survive get congratulated and put into a government position, inspecting fruit imports or looking for illegal hardwoods.

[Michael_Molnar]

I don't know if my recent experience is related to this Gibson story, but here it is.

I ordered a few maple scroll blocks from Slovakia and got a notice from the US Dept. of Agriculture that my "Miscellaneous Wood Stakes" were destroyed because the shipper did not have a permit.

I have ordered before and never had a "permit" problem.

Stay Tuned.
Mike

[Janito]

It was the "stakes" bit that spooked them.

Signed 'Vlad' perchance?

[Michael_Molnar]

Vlad Tepes, the mail inspector.

[difrangia]

The saga continues

http://bighollywood....nned-for-oct-8/

A gathering in Nashville in support of Gibson.

Steve

[propolis]

Andrew Breitbart's Big Hollywood? Before that we had a link to Fox News, and Glenn Beck's "the Blaze." For those readers outside the US who may be unfamiliar, those cannot be considered accurate journalism.

[DrTodd]

Feds are demanding more wood from Gibson.

Here.

[carlobartolini]

It's getting CRAZY!!!!!

Out of control: Feds ready to seize more guitars at concerts


edit - The article above is from a questionable source, I got from a friend, did not look at the website and re-postesd, an obvious mistake, I was going to delete it but decided to live for humor, and to retain the sense on the next few posts, sorry.

Edited by carlobartolini, 21 May 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[Bill Yacey]

The whole thing is absolutely stupid. According to the article, importing finished fingerboards is legal, however, unfinished wood stock or blanks is against the law.

The only net difference is which side of the ocean the remnant shavings and sawdust are left on. Either way, the trees get cut, the fingerboards made, and installed on instruments.

It seems from the link Carlo posted that they are threatening to go on a Gibson guitar witch hunt. Does it matter in which century the instrument was manufactured, or are they just going to confiscate and destroy anything labeled Gibson?

Unless it's an endangered or protected wood species, the Fed's should go back to tracking down contraband bird feathers.

[James M. Jones]

[quote name='Bill Yacey' timestamp='1337535994' pos

Unless it's an endangered or protected wood species, the Fed's should go back to tracking down contraband bird feathers.
[/quote]
I believe that is the crux of matter, looking at Madagascar ,or the amazon on google earth, will reveal the amount of endangerment.

[Bill Yacey]

If the mandate of the Feds is to truly protect endangered / protected trees, why would they allow the importation of finished products made from the same protected wood? That's the true idiocy of the situation.

The simplified story is trees are being harvested faster than they can regrow. If they balance this problem out, the world will happily keep turning.

While not helping the debate, another point to consider is whatever is blacklisted by the rest of the world, most likely the Chinese instrument industry will glom up these resources in the blink of an eye.

[Don Noon]

It seems from the link Carlo posted that they are threatening to go on a Gibson guitar witch hunt.

Take a look at the rest of the things that website chooses to post. I wouldn't give that article much credibility, as there is a quite clear agenda against the existing administration.

[James M. Jones]

If the mandate of the Feds is to truly protect endangered / protected trees, why would they allow the importation of finished products made from the same protected wood? That's the true idiocy of the situation.

The simplified story is trees are being harvested faster than they can regrow. If they balance this problem out, the world will happily keep turning.

While not helping the debate, another point to consider is whatever is blacklisted by the rest of the world, most likely the Chinese instrument industry will glom up these resources in the blink of an eye.

I think it's a lot harder(more jobs) for folks in a country like India, to produce a finished product, like a finger board ,than it is to simply load logs into a container..The act of processing must relieve some of the economic pressure that is driving folks to stripping the forest, A value added product, produced locally is generally a better option in a limited resource situation..Perhaps not a full solution, but one that is working in the right direction.....
The Idea that the Chinese market will suck up all the available resource might be true ,but following that logic, we should all drive hummers,wear Ivory buttons and become profit driven consumers, since everyone else is doing it....not to get all high and mighty, but two wrongs don't make a right. Without controls on who we are as a culture,we have no leg to stand on,when it comes to others rights,or wrongs.
The photo of Obama with the guitar, in that article, makes it look like he confiscated it himself!
I suppose we could al ways buy cheapo violins and rob the FB and the fittings.........

[Bill Yacey]

I think it's a lot harder(more jobs) for folks in a country like India, to produce a finished product, like a finger board ,than it is to simply load logs into a container..The act of processing must relieve some of the economic pressure that is driving folks to stripping the forest, A value added product, produced locally is generally a better option in a limited resource situation..Perhaps not a full solution, but one that is working in the right direction.....

The cutting is due to supply and demand. I don't think finishing the components in India will alleviate the pressures put on the logging industry.

The Idea that the Chinese market will suck up all the available resource might be true ,but following that logic, we should all drive hummers,wear Ivory buttons and become profit driven consumers, since everyone else is doing it....not to get all high and mighty, but two wrongs don't make a right. Without controls on who we are as a culture,we have no leg to stand on,when it comes to others rights,or wrongs.

I fully agree with you; the point I was trying to make is the market will likely just shift to another buyer unless we can all adhere to these laws worldwide.

[carlobartolini]

Take a look at the rest of the things that website chooses to post. I wouldn't give that article much credibility, as there is a quite clear agenda against the existing administration.

Sorry, should have looked into the website before re-posting, my friend who's a prominent musician, known worldwide, posted it on Facebook today, so I thought he new something, since he is active in the business and I'm not anymore, he hears the word of mouth, and is a very honest guy without an agenda, but you are right, I should have looked more, having dealt with journalists most of my life I do know how they are not well informed most of the times, and may have an agenda....either way I have no idea what's going on. I do distrust politicians from all parties, as they are not looking out for the people, they are looking out for their own desires.

Time will show if the article is only sensationalism or if there's truth in it. I hope for the 1st option)

He also posted (I agree with him):

Just the pure documented fact that Gisbson, one of the last remaining American guitar manufacturers, has been radied by the Feds is enough cause for alarm. Being an American that was born in Cuba, a still existing communsit regime, it breaks my heart that my own signature model is now being manufacutered in Chna, in case someone forgot that it's still a Communsit courntry, due to American companies having to move their buisness over seas as they get havely taxed by the goverment.

Mike, my apologies above.

Since I already posted a link from a questionable website, I might as well dig deeper and post one from a even more questionable source, the government.

Testimony of Rep. Jim Cooper House Natural Resources Committee Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs May 8, 2012

Edited by carlobartolini, 20 May 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Michael_Molnar]

Discussed off line.

[David Burgess]

BTW, I have planks of rosewood that I bought 20 years ago. Do I need a permit to sell them now?

Maybe not a "permit" per se for domestic sale, but it might be wise, both for you and the buyer, if you have a lot of documentation available. If anyone thinks they have a simpler and reliable answer, chances are they are just underinformed. You can see my post on our meeting with government enforcement representatives. Interpretation of the laws, and how to enforce them is a work in progress.

See post #4 in the "More on the Lacey Act" thread.

Some fundamental questions:
Can you prove what kind of rosewood this is, where it came from, and when? If you have receipts for some 20-year-old rosewood, can you prove that they are for the very same wood you mentioned?

[jezzupe]

I'm sorry, but between the patriot act, the house resolutions, fema/dhs, cispa,sopa, and now ndaa, lumped in with the Lacey act, which basically makes you a terrorist , now a terrorist or criminal for owning wood. Sorry this is not America, and anyone who makes this seem like no big deal and that well, all you need to do is go get your permit has got their head in the sand.

The "government" that is doing this to you is put in place via the media which is controlled by the the people who OWN the currency supply...

Just in case you don't know how it works.

Currency,money,the most important thing in the tangible world is supposed to be a DEVICE created for the people by the people,paid for with APPORTIONED TAX to be used in a free market society.

What we have now is a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT CORP. WHO'S PRODUCT IS YOUR CURRENCY. Unless you live in China,Russia or Iran, you are using the Corporation PRODUCT. And they are charging you 30-40% of your income to be able to use their money and then fold the rest into "government expansion" which in turn creates more borrowing....

{see 16 trillion dollar national debt...ie the profit you owe the bankers for making your money, that they don't have}{not including the unsecured 700 trillion dollar bond market, ie. IOU's they sold the world that YOU are responsible for backing}

Once you understand the ramifications of this FACT, and just how money as debt scams work, who is in charge of them and how your republican/democrat paradigm ties into all this. You will understand exactly why they are doing all this paper work to basically turn you into a potential terrorist for opposing this corporate tyranny.

And what you see, slowly starting, is a revolution, and just so you know what it is about, it is about what I just said...AND HOW IT IS WRONG...

So, in a land where the best, most award winning violin maker, David.B. can't take in a couple of neighborhood kids as apprentices because he does not have the insurance, permits and would be "endangering children"....in a land where you should even have to THINK about if its WRONG to own wood cut 20 years ago...in a land where we're having meetings with jingoistic agents who don't even know what they are really doing, or why they are doing it,just that they are supposed to. Here again this is they way the NWO works, they take a good cause and will manipulate it into what we have with this "law" which by the way, "they didn't write"....yup just following orders.

There is a line in the sand, one side is money printed as debt and all the corporate/political interests that benefit off money printed as debt, then there is the rest of us. That is what the NWO is for those who do not know.

Personally I'm not going to stand for this crap, and just like all the rest of these NWO rules, laws and regulations, I just ignore them and go back to planing on how to get the hell out of here, or go back to sharpening the spear tips on all my violins, trust me, I saw it coming,I didn't put spear tips on there for nothing

Sorry for the rant, but last time I checked currency,money and the flow of it has everything to do with making and selling violins. Free markets are supposed to be free, not....this