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maker buys $25,000 c1885 Raffaele Calace for $500 on Ebay!!!


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#21 Jacob

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:26 PM

Jacob,

It says in the eBay listing that the neck has been replaced.
I think that the body was also replaced at some stage.

Glenn

Ah, I see...like the axe in the Tower of London? New blade, replacement handle, but original axe...

#22 Dean_Lapinel

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:30 PM

Hi Jacob,

This is what I know as Raffaele Calace 1900.

Bruce


Hi Bruce,

As usual, great photos to look at. I was struck by the corner purfling. There seems to be a sharp edge on the purfling channel that can only happen if the purfling was set low rather than shaved down to create the channel and tie in to the arching. Perhaps this is just an artifact of the photo but it jumps out at me. Comment?

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  • vo Calace Raffaele 1900 - 013.jpg


#23 iburkard

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:38 PM

There seems to be a sharp edge on the purfling channel that can only happen if the purfling was set low rather than shaved down to create the channel and tie in to the arching. Perhaps this is just an artifact of the photo but it jumps out at me. Comment?


The channel does look wide, but the highlight looks like separation to me... purfling shrinking, and cracking the finish?

As to the value of this instrument -- really? Quite a markup. Looks like I'll have to keep buying white violins from Chinatown.

#24 lyndon

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:05 PM

According to Arthur Robinson, outside Perth Australia, one of the top Australian builders and dealers of both modern and baroque violins, who is a good Friend of Charles Beare in London were he used to live, Woodcocks certificates are well respected, even today in England, and every big name appraiser, take Dario D'Attili for example, end up making judgements that later dealers decide are wrong, as to the Gagliano, what evidence do you have that it wasn't the modern dealers questioning his appraisal so they had a better chance of convincing you to sell it to them cheap,

Appraisers were not more dishonest and less accurate years ago, and possibly just the opposite. You havent compared side by side my violin to the pictures Bruce so kindly sent me,I have; there virtually identical to any eye, that doesnt make it a Calace, who copied a Gagliano I think, maybe its much older and thats why the scroll is grafted, Im not an expert, but Arthur Robinson said a Woodcock label is as good as a Woodcock certificate, and Woodcock certificates are honored at major auction houses like Sothebys and Bonhams,

just because you dont like Lyndon, doesn't mean he didn't buy an Italian violin on ebay for $500. Ps Bruce I should have picture posted with a link here by next week then please youre opinion will be greatly respected, your friend Lyndon Taylor :)
Taylor's Fine Violins, Redlands, S. California
Specializing in the research and restoration
of baroque, transitional, and modern violins.

http://www.violinist..._johann_taylor/
(violin shop ad, with links to instruments for sale, pictures of
violins I restored, and recordings and pics of my clavichords)

#25 Bruce Carlson

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:27 PM

Hi Bruce,

As usual, great photos to look at. I was struck by the corner purfling. There seems to be a sharp edge on the purfling channel that can only happen if the purfling was set low rather than shaved down to create the channel and tie in to the arching. Perhaps this is just an artifact of the photo but it jumps out at me. Comment?

Hi Dean,

I think you can see the edgework better in the photographs below. It's a very unusual rounded edge and the purfling white, which is NOT wood, looks more like some material you would find running around the decorative edge of a guitar or a mandolin.

Bruce

vo Calace Raffaele 1900 - 014.jpg vo Calace Raffaele 1900 - 015.jpg vo Calace Raffaele 1900 - 016.jpg

#26 ~ Ben Conover

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:14 PM

Great photos, thanks Bruce.

#27 Dean_Lapinel

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:15 PM

Hi Dean,

I think you can see the edgework better in the photographs below. It's a very unusual rounded edge and the purfling white, which is NOT wood, looks more like some material you would find running around the decorative edge of a guitar or a mandolin.

Bruce


I see. Thanks Bruce.

#28 Christopher Reuning

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:28 PM

A friend once described a so called Stradivari as "the only original part are the soundholes...the air in between the soundholes"
Christopher Reuning, Boston, MA
www.reuning.com

#29 Dean_Lapinel

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 06:47 PM

A friend once described a so called Stradivari as "the only original part are the soundholes...the air in between the soundholes"



I like that.
Timely though since I am looking for a new Strad template of this very same "negative space". The one's I have used, though accurate, seem unbalanced now. This has caused the makers equivalent of writers block. At least that's my excuse :)

#30 JPherson

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:29 PM

I like that.
Timely though since I am looking for a new Strad template of this very same "negative space". The one's I have used, though accurate, seem unbalanced now. This has caused the makers equivalent of writers block. At least that's my excuse :)


I think i will use your excuse too :) I have had the same "block" for the last 5 years :)
Jesse

#31 lyndon

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:30 PM

Charles Beare appraised my Ruggieri as Central European from pictures, after Arthur Robinson who had my instrument for a year to restore it, appraised it as Italian resembling Ruggieri, Charles actually appraised this from pictures,and he is a very busy man, this was enough to convince Arthur it was only worth $8000, and I had to sell it for $3000, but that was my first big sale when I opened this business and it bought a lot of violins, appraising violins from pictures, especially bad pictures is not a very good idea.

Hans Weisshaar is evidently one of the biggest fans of fine Czech violins because the busy man spent 1/2 tediously going over every detail of my first Ruggieri,a czech violin he stated nothing more, knowing full well I had no intention of selling it, he made no offer for it, though he stated it was good buy for $500. Experts smexperts, when everyone agrees something is real like my Gemunder, you can take it to the bank, but some violins are very hard to identify and usually get way under appraised and they all have something in common, no label, go figure, experts claiming they can identify anything can't appraise without the label, and guess where the most authentic, historical ink, 200yr old paper, obviously old looking fake labels come from, not amateur ebay sellers, Experts go by labels and youre not supposed to go by them, you can judge the value of a violin better by its tone, than by its label in my opinion, If it looks like a strad, labeled as a Strad experts say its a strad but it doesn't sound like a million bucks, its probably not real, My Calace sounds like about 100,000, try telling me its not Italian. :) :) :)
Taylor's Fine Violins, Redlands, S. California
Specializing in the research and restoration
of baroque, transitional, and modern violins.

http://www.violinist..._johann_taylor/
(violin shop ad, with links to instruments for sale, pictures of
violins I restored, and recordings and pics of my clavichords)

#32 Christopher Reuning

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:56 PM

Charles Beare appraised my Ruggieri as Central European from pictures, after Arthur Robinson who had my instrument for a year to restore it, appraised it as Italian resembling Ruggieri, Charles actually appraised this from pictures,and he is a very busy man, this was enough to convince Arthur it was only worth $8000, and I had to sell it for $3000, but that was my first big sale when I opened this business and it bought a lot of violins, appraising violins from pictures, especially bad pictures is not a very good idea.

Hans Weisshaar is evidently one of the biggest fans of fine Czech violins because the busy man spent 1/2 tediously going over every detail of my first Ruggieri,a czech violin he stated nothing more, knowing full well I had no intention of selling it, he made no offer for it, though he stated it was good buy for $500. Experts smexperts, when everyone agrees something is real like my Gemunder, you can take it to the bank, but some violins are very hard to identify and usually get way under appraised and they all have something in common, no label, go figure, experts claiming they can identify anything can't appraise without the label, and guess where the most authentic, historical ink, 200yr old paper, obviously old looking fake labels come from, not amateur ebay sellers, Experts go by labels and youre not supposed to go by them, you can judge the value of a violin better by its tone, than by its label in my opinion, If it looks like a strad, labeled as a Strad experts say its a strad but it doesn't sound like a million bucks, its probably not real, My Calace sounds like about 100,000, try telling me its not Italian. :) :) :)

Lyndon,
I did not pile on with an opinion about your fiddle because the pictures are not good enough so I can form one. Put up some good pics, though and it should be pretty clear if it is or isn't. Bruce's is excellent and this maker is very consistent and recognizable.
Chris
Christopher Reuning, Boston, MA
www.reuning.com

#33 lyndon

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:23 PM

sorry bruce i didnt know what you meant by that comment about strad air, youre spot on, how can you judge anything from these picture other than the resemblance of the f holes, mines a little more italian style hand made by one maker, visible tool marks, little imperfections that make it less polished, no sandpaper finely hand scraped,bruces one look mores expensive, which makes me consider that mine may be?? possibly calace in his youth with no helpers, which would be much rarer and potentially valuable. woodcock guess of the age,1900, may be off by a decade............
Taylor's Fine Violins, Redlands, S. California
Specializing in the research and restoration
of baroque, transitional, and modern violins.

http://www.violinist..._johann_taylor/
(violin shop ad, with links to instruments for sale, pictures of
violins I restored, and recordings and pics of my clavichords)

#34 Bruce Carlson

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:23 AM

sorry bruce i didnt know what you meant by that comment about strad air, youre spot on, how can you judge anything from these picture other than the resemblance of the f holes, mines a little more italian style hand made by one maker, visible tool marks, little imperfections that make it less polished, no sandpaper finely hand scraped,bruces one look mores expensive, which makes me consider that mine may be?? possibly calace in his youth with no helpers, which would be much rarer and potentially valuable. woodcock guess of the age,1900, may be off by a decade............

Hi Lyndon,

I don't think I made any comment about "Strad air" (that was Chris) and you can't see much from the pictures of your violin on e-bay. It's impossible to do anything with bad pictures and only a verbal description.

Show us some good photographs.

When I am sent photographs my comments are usually limited to help someone avoid spending a lot of time and money to take a long trip to Cremona for an "open and shut case" of "another factory fiddle". If it looks interesting and worth their time to make the trip then I invite them to show me the instrument. I would never write a certificate or an appraisal without having the chance to see the instrument in person and examine it carefully.

Bruce

#35 Bacon

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:32 AM

Here is a Raffaele Calace, Napoli 1905 I restored.

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Stephen

#36 Bruce Carlson

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:50 AM

Here is a Raffaele Calace, Napoli 1905 I restored.

Only five years later than the violin and look how much he changed!!!! :)

The decorations fit the time frame.

Bruce

#37 Mark Caudle

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:43 AM

Only five years later than the violin and look how much he changed!!!! :)

The decorations fit the time frame.

Bruce

If the white stuff used in the violin purfling is the same material as used for mandolin decoration, that might point towards authenticity of the ebay violin?? Don't know what is used though.
Regards, Mark

#38 lyndon

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 04:31 AM

Disclaimer; This discourse largely based on fact is an actual story, but the statements by Lyndon Taylor, may or may not be 100% factual, The excitement of getting this violin off ebay a week ago, have thrown Lyndon into his manic state, as being manic depressive he is usually depressed much less likely to exagerate or overstate his claims. Right now lyndon has convinced himself this thing is real. he should keep his comments to himself and leave the appraising to experts, like he would do in a clearer state of mind.
thats my opinion, a friend
Taylor's Fine Violins, Redlands, S. California
Specializing in the research and restoration
of baroque, transitional, and modern violins.

http://www.violinist..._johann_taylor/
(violin shop ad, with links to instruments for sale, pictures of
violins I restored, and recordings and pics of my clavichords)

#39 Bacon

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:55 AM

The white strips on the back of the mandolin are ivory. However, as the decretive arm rest at the bottom of the instrument is an early pliable synthetic material, I suspect nitrocellulose based, it is possible the maker used early plastics on the violin. At that time still an exotic material.
Lyndon, I wish you swift recovery.

If the white stuff used in the violin purfling is the same material as used for mandolin decoration, that might point towards authenticity of the ebay violin?? Don't know what is used though.
Regards, Mark


Stephen

#40 Ron MacDonald

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:05 AM

This is not directed at Lyndon or this instrument but perhaps some may find my experience with Woodcock interesting.

I foolishly purchased the supposed Gagliano from him in 1965 when I was a very naive student--I was also considering an instrument from W.E. Hill at the same time but its attribution was much less impressive (I certainly regret now that I didn't purchase that one). The instrument from Woodcock had serious problems from the beginning including a poorly executed neck graft that had to be replaced so I took it to Heinl's in Toronto for repairs. They treated me kindly from the beginning and did a new graft but also gently informed me about Woodcock's notoriety in the violin family world. Later it went to Wilfer's of Montreal for minor repairs and I was told the same thing. The instrument was a poor composite, not even Italian.

Later I acquired a much better instrument and put the alleged Gagliano aside and when a needy student came along I gave it to him. Even though it was a gift, I thought he might like to have the certificate but I was no longer able to find it--so I wrote to Woodcock to ask whether he might be able to send a duplicate (assuming that he kept good records). To my astonishment, he sent me a blank certificate signed by himself with the admonition: "Write in whatever you like". So much for Woodcock certificates!

It was good education. I laugh now when I think of it.
Ron




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