106 replies to this topic

[Jeremy Davis]

Hello all,

I apologize if this thread seems redundant as it relates directly to another thread I've started about Victorn Drakegg, Luthier. Since I posted that thread I've come into new information and would like to discuss in this thread the violin's origins rather than how to fix it. I will be repeating much of the information and pictures from that thread, so don't think you're crazy if you've seen them before. Now, let me explain a little of what I've found out.

This violin was recently bought at an auction by a friend of mine by mistake (wrong lot number) and he has given it to me. It is labeled in old german script "Victorin Drassegg, Instrumentmacher in Bregenz, 1834". This label appears to be on old paper and pasted over another label (see picture). I hope to be able to get at the older label at some point, but don't want to damage the top label in the process. Perhaps that can be an issue to discuss. There was discussion in the other thread about the similarity of inks on both the print and date and the lack of fading on the handwritten portion. I can't be sure if the inks are different or not without getting the top off and getting closer with different light. But, from what I can see, there is a slight difference. Whether the ink would be faded more after 176 years I can't be sure, but I do know of much older documents where the handwritten ink is strong and bold. Depends on the ink and paper quality I suppose.



As for the rest of the violin, it is a full-bodied violin with a thick profile 71mm (2-3/4") at its widest. It has had numerous repairs inside over the years (see pictures) and appears to have a full upper block for the neck (as opposed to a straight-though neck). It also possesses lower corner blocks, but not upper ones. The bass bar seems short (ends several inches before others I've seen) and oddly shaped to boot. One poster described is the keel of a viking ship although looking through the endpin hole it doesn't seem as big in person. The neck doesn't appear to have a graft at its heel that I can see, nor does there appear to be any metal pins visible. The fingerboard has an extremely large amount of wear on it and appears to taper more towards the scroll than other finger boards I've come across. The scroll seems slightly misshapen to my eyes (especially from the profile) and am not sure if that provides any clues as to whether an entirely new neck/scroll was attached to the body at some point. (as opposed to grafting) The varnish on the scroll also seems a bit different than the body. (thick dark over varnish bubbles visible)

Now, after being corrected on my original translation of the name on the label, I actually came up with some information. Before I post the bio I found, I want to bring attention to the fact that Victorin Drassegg was known (as far as I can tell) for rebuilding Guitars, Zithers, and Violins during his time in Bregenz. That could add some authenticity to my instrument being of his time period or earlier especially considering that his label was pasted over another one along with the differences in construction/finish of the body vs. neck and scroll. Here is his rather interesting bio:

Drassegg, Victorin.,
(aka Viktorin Drasseck/Drasegg/Drassegg)
Born in Velky Polom, Austria, September 3rd, 1782 son of Josef D. Drassich and Maria Anna Miiller.

Victorin Drassegg was originally trained as a carpenter, but later became a soldier and had a rather adventurous military career. During his service in he fell into French captivity while fighting in Italy. Later, when Italy fell to Napoleon, he was apparently reinstated to the military. In 1815 he deserted and arrived in Bregenz on March 4th, 1816 under the assumed name Freiderich Grinnwald (Frederick Greenwood) in order to avoid punishment as a deserter. He then married Maria Katharina from Lochau. He remained in Bregenz as a luthier specializing in Guitars and Zithers. He is known to have rebuilt guitar and harps between 1820-1844. There are apparently violins as well of whose origins is still questionable. Later in life he moved to Vienna where he eventually passed away on March 6th 1847 at 66 years of age.

A description of Drassegg's almost-novelistic war experiences exists in a Bregenz Wedding Book by J. Derverberation 1816 in the museum Archives.

A "Quitarre double neck" by Drassegg is in the Crafts Museum Markneukirchen.
A "Wappengitarre" (shield-shaped guitar) Walnut, spruce, ebony, is in Boston at the Museum of Fine Arts

Source: "Museum of music history of Wilhelm Heyer in Cologne: small catalog of the collection of old Musikinstumente verfast: by Georg Kinsky

I will include more pictures in the next thread...

[Jeremy Davis]

[Jeremy Davis]

I think the upper part of the block might have a split in it:





Some known examples of Drasseggs work:

[lyndon]

this violin is about as baroque as my grandma and thats not an older label underneath its a newer label, with a fake label on top, thats my opinion

[welshman]

I might agree with the last poster, I would be inclined to soak the labels apart. The violin looks total modern and German to my eye and i have come across those big blocky bassbars before - often very short in length kind of like the miracle bassbar on the market now.

Lot of damge there to fix up.

Reese

[lyndon]

the label underneath is almost always worse than the label on top what possible reason would someone want to cover up a good label for, my bet is stradivarious, sincerely lyndon

[iburkard]

Lyndon, there's that condescension again.

Jeremy, didn't we already established that the label is most probably fake in another thread, so the images of other instruments are a bit misleading?

Tons of people get excited about the possibility that their nonstandard violin might be a very old Baroque instrument. Usually the violin in question is simply an odd nonstandard German violin with quirky craftsmanship (but that's not always the case). I think that's what you have here, and odd classical German/European violin.

[Jeremy Davis]

Lyndon, there's that condescension again.

Jeremy, didn't we already established that the label is most probably fake in another thread, so the images of other instruments are a bit misleading?

Tons of people get excited about the possibility that their nonstandard violin might be a very old Baroque instrument. Usually the violin in question is simply an odd nonstandard German violin with quirky craftsmanship (but that's not always the case). I think that's what you have here, and odd classical German/European violin.

I'm not sure about the label. I've been looking at it and feel there is something more to it. I would like to reserve judgement on that for now. As for the extra pictures, they are to give context to the information I found out about Drassegg. The fact he is primarily known as a Guitar and Zither repairman and not a maker, certainly not of violins. I felt the pictures would help the discussion, certainly not mislead it.

the label underneath is almost always worse than the label on top what possible reason would someone want to cover up a good label for, my bet is stradivarious, sincerely lyndon

You know, I'm sure you are right as you certainly have more experience in these matters than myself. Certainly it will be useful to soak the labels apart and find out the truth, of which I have no doubt of being disappointed. I'm sure the auctioneers had someone with experience look at that violin and they determined it was not very special, hence the low reserve.

Now, on the other side of things, one really never knows about intention and the reasons why people do things. I can think of several reasons why one would cover up one label for another besides the obvious. Ego? Pride? Perhaps the label he covered up (if "he" actually did it) wasn't so special then. Perhaps he was trying to make a name for himself in Bregenz and felt it was more beneficial to slap a new label with his name on it and drum up some more business. I'm sure the violin dealing business wasn't so specialized then as it is now. I would think that a man trying to survive in a post-French war Austria would want to do all he could to ensure a successful business.

Now, I know this all sounds like a pipe-dream and wishful thinking, but I can't think of a good reason why someone would put a fake label on a violin from someone who no one ever heard of, and if they did know of him, would know him to be a only a repairman and not an actual maker. (not even a reputably good repairman).

So, I can see what I must sound like. Really, I know. But it's fun to hope and wonder. I'll certainly get the violin fixed up as I'm sure it'll be a fun project and learning experience. That being said, I would still like to hear more opinions about this violin - the good and bad. I'll post better pictures soon.

[iburkard]

I should have said "confusing" intead of "misleading". I know that you're not trying to pull a fast one.

Placing labels of obscure/less familiar makers is common practice. I agree that seeing this name (after being given the info you found) seems odd.

Keep having fun!

[lyndon]

in answer to the original question, a modernized baroque violin will have either a neck scroll graft or its original baroque neck, or rarely a completely replaced modern neck, you dont seem to look beyond the label, labels like this were put in around 1900 to fool people like you, the obscurity of the maker doesnt make it any more real, the label underneath is quite possibly the original one but its probably a fake italian one so someone reasoned no ones going to beleive its italian so ill slap in a fake drasegg label and get more money for it, its a filthy business, but someones gotta do it sincerely lyndon

[Fellow]

++++++++++

My take, the top label is a repairers' label. Underneath is a label of no particular importance.
The top label was readily available so he used it without thinking of any its implication.

The violin is not a 1600 violin. Maybe 1850 or a bit earlier. Broken does not mean old.
The following pic is a lower graded Roth but the label once was 1600 Amati. A joke of someone.

PS. You could have someone restore your to a playable condition and it has its old charm. The cost
would not be cheap.

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[iburkard]

I'm fairly sure that the label is not a repair label. I cannot imagine that someone capable of making the instruments shown above repaired a violin in this fashion.

My advice, stop questioning and start repairing already!

[Jeremy Davis]

in answer to the original question, a modernized baroque violin will have either a neck scroll graft or its original baroque neck, or rarely a completely replaced modern neck, you dont seem to look beyond the label, labels like this were put in around 1900 to fool people like you, the obscurity of the maker doesnt make it any more real, the label underneath is quite possibly the original one but its probably a fake italian one so someone reasoned no ones going to beleive its italian so ill slap in a fake drasegg label and get more money for it, its a filthy business, but someones gotta do it sincerely lyndon

Thanks for the replies, very useful info. My main goal in this thread is to discuss the practical clues on how to identify if one's violin is modernized. Thanks for tips on the neck. I am wondering if there are other signs to look out for (perhaps once the top is removed). Secondly, I am interested in discussing the implications of the visible label. It's rather underwhelming at face value to begin with and I think that's important to consider.

Now, how does one determine definitively whether or not something is authentic at all? I mean, if both labels could be fake - where does it end? Ultimately I imagine it's one person's opinion against another. Are there any specific construction techniques/omissions that could confirm or deny the origin of this violin?

Believe me, I certainly considered the idea that using an obscure label was a good idea. Iit does add a note of authenticity to a dubious instrument. But, "instrumentmacher" doesn't exactly instill mystery, implied value, or quality for that matter. I would think if you wanted to spice up the fake violin you were selling, at least make sure the obscure maker was a violin maker by description. Even before I did any research, I felt that "instrumentmacher" was a bit off-putting somehow. It would be like calling the Pioneer CD player you are selling a Sony. Not much of a real difference and not very tempting either way.

Without any real experience, only my gut feeling and reasoning, I tend to feel that the top label is authentic. Whether or not it is a baroque violin is of less importance to me. I only asked because of its big fat body, mismatched scroll/varnish, and the possibility that if it was "repaired" in 1834 than it might be a fair amount older than that. Perhaps it is from the 18th century.

Believe me, I don't think that this violin is from some famous maker originally (or even well made at all). A famous maker now was probably a famous maker then and it would have behooved him to leave such a label visible. He most likely covered up an obscure label in lieu of promoting his business and name. To me, it seems possible - if not likely - that that it was at least repaired/restored in 1834 by Victorin Drassegg. Would any of you agree that the odds are at least even either way on this one given what we know about him?

P.S. Just curious, but has anyone here ever seen a Victorin Drassegg label before? (I suppose that would have been a good place to start) One would assume that if fake labels of his where going around that it would be used more than once since there is a bit of effort involved in forging a printed label.

[iburkard]

If some previous owner/seller of the instrument was crafty, the label could be authentic, but taken from another instrument like a guitar, a placed inside of your violin. The notion that an over label is the original one seems a tad irrational. The label beneath this one will at least be an older form of misdirection than the top one.

You should get someone to run a dendrochronology pass on the top (people here on MN do it), using the spruce grain to give possible origin of wood and date. It's all speculation, but a better scientific approach if you don't like other forms of deduction/reason.

The over varnish on the scroll appears to be a quick fix (bubble in the varnish), no indication that this instrument was baroque. This is common on 19C violins, sometimes the varnish is almost black. Remember that varnish is applied in coats... ground clear coat, and a color coat (everyone has different working methods, but you get the idea), so pigment will wear down to what may appear to be "original" varnish, when it's actually just the ground coat.


As far as I am aware, there are no standard earmarks of a Baroque or transitional instrument. They are all unique, and nonstandard. People will mention things like...

integral bass bar (carved from the top instead of applied)
no corner blocks
through neck or nailed neck construction
low neck angle

But these are also the same traits of a quickly made export violin (from the early 1800s to today)

[Jeremy Davis]

If some previous owner/seller of the instrument was crafty, the label could be authentic, but taken from another instrument like a guitar, a placed inside of your violin. The notion that an over label is the original one seems a tad irrational. The label beneath this one will at least be an older form of misdirection than the top one.

This does sound plausible, but again it trading oranges for oranges. If one were to go through the trouble to remove a label for an authentic instrument in order to spice up another instrument, would they not get rid of the original label? If not only to avoid this sort of speculation? It seems much more likely that a proud repairman who survived a war (through desertion) would slap his label over an existing one - especially if it were unremarkable - in order to place himself as the more important person to his potential customers of the day.

On a side note, why does everyone always assume a violin is a fake? It seems even in the most mundane circumstances a violin is assumed fake or suspicious from the beginning. Is it because of the rampant dishonesty perpetrated by so many in older times (and perhaps today), or is it something else? I don't mean to sound off-putting, but I haven't heard anything about its construction yet that would shed doubt on it being from at least 1834.

Let me pose the question another way: If it didn't have a label at all, are there any signs of it being from a particular time period? Example: a few months back I started a thread about an old violin I have that turned out to be a cheap Saxon copy. The tell-tale signs were: Small f-holes, Through-neck, split lining at heel of neck, integral rough carved bass bar, & Circular saw Ribs. The one exception was the particularly nice scroll. Is there anything here that would tell an expert that it could be excluded from certain time periods? (I'm assuming we've ruled out the 17th Century and earlier)

BTW, I'm finding this discussion rather interesting...

[iburkard]

It's not that the violin is a fake/copy, but that it may not be what you think it is. People often assume that an instrument is something based on the label, when it may be nothing at all (not a million dollar something). As you now know, relabeling is an easy way to create interest in an instrument with almost no effort. As I've said several times already, it's a common dirty practice. Interior labels are often lost or removed, so replacing them with something more interesting is easy. Just ask Fellow.

I don't think that you would be trading oranges for oranges by removing the over label. What I meant by misdirection is that often maker labels mimic Strad/Italian style labels, but are actually German, Czech or French copies. Who knows, maybe there would be actual maker information, instead of this giant over maker label, which we are assuming was used as a repair label.

I will let someone else respond to this thread about time periods. I think that there is nothing here to indicate that this is from a unique/specific point of time. Violin design has remained almost unchanged for hundreds of years.

[Fellow]

[q

+++++++++++++

You don't have to do a lot to destroy a label unintentionally. When I tried to clean up inside, the water got to the label and it
smeared it to the point no one care to have the label. I just took the label out.

A 150+ years old violin is nothing special. I have not seen one in good condition except in violin shops. Most are needing repairs.
Violin shops have truck load of these violins. They fix them only if they have the opportunity of selling them, as playable instruments,
better for their bottom line and for the consumers, I guess.

[Jeremy Davis]

I would be inclined to soak the labels apart.
Reese

How would I go about this once the top is removed? Surely you can't leave a puddle of water over the exposed wood around the label. Do you think the adhesive is hide glue?

You don't have to do a lot to destroy a label unintentionally. When I tried to clean up inside, the water got to the label and it
smeared it to the point no one care to have the label. I just took the label out.

Fellow brings up a good point. In my effort to see what's underneath, I might destroy what little info I have (or may not have as may be the cace ) Has anybody experimented with black light or Infrared photography to see underneath labels before?

[welshman]

Well, test the ink first with a small paint brush with just a bit of water, put a layer of paper towel over the label and wet slightly and let it sit, wetting occassionally, eventually you will be able to lift the edges perhaps enough to see if it is worth removing all of the cover label.
at that point decide if you want to just reglue the label or remove it completely.

Reese

[mayofiddler6]

Just FYI, before I stopped wasting my time on ebay there was a woman in the States trying to sell the same three ratty violins over and over again with a different label every time. She was obviously going through a book of makers and randomly picking names, without regard to the makers style or even how many of their instruments existed. It was comical to watch but nobody was caught by her as far as I could tell as the instruments kept reappearing.

<edit>There were never any pics of the labels, whether she was piling them one on top of another through the ffs or was planning on sticking one in if they sold I have no idea</edit>

You might also note that people replaced genuine Strad labels on genuine Strads with doctored ones because according to legend/preference some dates are better than others.

There are any number of reasons people stick fake or genuine labels over other ones.