41 replies to this topic

[JimMurphy]

... you're just fooling around, right? I mean - like - you can't be serious??

No, actually I'm not fooling around.

If one's stance is that piercing the soundpost does not affect acoustic response, i.e., all that matters
is getting it into proper position, then there's really no "need" to pierce in the first place.

OTOH, many believe vibrations are transmitted from Belly to Back Plate via wooden soundpost.
IF that's true, there may be good reason to question the "traditional" piercing method -
unless of course it's already been determined not to affect soundpost vibration transmission efficiencies.

I'm questioning how this may have been determined.

Jim

[fingerbord]

I would like to let the people who posted the soundpost setter know .
That I own the patten on this soundpost setter.For the last six years.
Please contact me when you find the time.
Thank you
Terry Farrell
Farrell& Farrell violins

[chronos]

I would like to let the people who posted the soundpost setter know .
That I own the patten on this soundpost setter.For the last six years.
Please contact me when you find the time.

I doubt they read these forums, but even if they did it's hardly the best way to notify them about alleged patent infringement.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

I was just talking to someone about patents, and they said unless you are rich you can't afford to fight to get you money on infringements, but I hope you can and do win something on this.

[mayofiddler6]

I don't see any advantage to this other than the post won't fall off it if you are too lazy to sharpen and bend your setter correctly. I also wonder how tightly it holds the post if you want to rotate it?

As for piercing the post causing acoustic problems, I assume violin design has taken account of this little (non?)issue over the last few centuries

[Oded Kishony]

I think the idea that stabbing a soundpost will have an acoustical effect can be fairly easily verified. Start with a solid soundpost measure it's resonance profile, stab it and measure again. If there is no change then the likelihood of it changing the sound of the instrument is near zero.

I would be seriously surprised if there's any change, after all no wood is removed, neither stiffness, mass nor damping properties of the post are significantly changes by stabbing.

Oded

[MellowCello]

I don't see any advantage to this other than the post won't fall off it if you are too lazy to sharpen and bend your setter correctly. I also wonder how tightly it holds the post if you want to rotate it?

As for piercing the post causing acoustic problems, I assume violin design has taken account of this little (non?)issue over the last few centuries

Could someone explain how to properly sharpen and bend a sound post setter (the S kind) for a cello setup.
Thanks so much.

[dogmageek]

[I think the idea that stabbing a soundpost will have an acoustical effect can be fairly easily verified. Start with a solid soundpost measure it's resonance profile, stab it and measure again. If there is no change then the likelihood of it changing the sound of the instrument is near zero.

I would be seriously surprised if there's any change, after all no wood is removed, neither stiffness, mass nor damping properties of the post are significantly changes by stabbing.

Oded ]

I believe the scientific method calls for hypothesis testing, peer approval etc.

[ctviolin]

If stabbing the post has any ramifications with regard to the tone of the violin, would there be any logical reason to suppose that stabbing it would act in the direction of making things "worse" and not "better"?

Other than what I would think of as "romance"?

[Addie]

Other than what I would think of as "romance"?

Romance and stabbing with sharp objects... don’t really seem to go together.

[martin swan]

Romance and stabbing with sharp objects... don't really seem to go together.

Romeo and Juliet?

[Addie]

Romeo and Juliet?

They should have tried counseling.

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo.

Exeunt

[ctviolin]

Romance and stabbing with sharp objects... don’t really seem to go together.

Ahh, so - you must be single.

The idea that stabbing the post will hurt things IN GENERAL, reminds me of the claim I read one time (made in grave sincerity) that using power tools can "frighten" the wood - damaging the tone of the finished violin...

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

The idea that stabbing the post will hurt things IN GENERAL, reminds me of the claim I read one time (made in grave sincerity) that using power tools can "frighten" the wood - damaging the tone of the finished violin...

Sounds like an anthroposophical idea.

[robertdo]

[I think the idea that stabbing a soundpost will have an acoustical effect can be fairly easily verified. Start with a solid soundpost measure it's resonance profile, stab it and measure again. If there is no change then the likelihood of it changing the sound of the instrument is near zero.

I would be seriously surprised if there's any change, after all no wood is removed, neither stiffness, mass nor damping properties of the post are significantly changes by stabbing.

Oded ]

I believe the scientific method calls for hypothesis testing, peer approval etc.

In an ideal world that is true, but aren't 99.9% of the "best sounding" instruments fitted with a stabbed soundpost? testing would require objective listeners, and many threads here have already been devoted to fierce battles between pro and against human violin testing. So the objective listener would have to be a computerised device that would show some variations more or less pronounced at this or this wavelength and of course nobody would agree on the interpretation. In turn a human opinion would have to come into play as to decide if yes or no the new soundpost improves the sound (and of course that would result in a catch 22). I am myself a scientist and of course I know about peer reviewed articles, but when it comes to violin sound I am perfectly happy to hear Oistrak or Ferras playing Sibelius or tchaikovski with a violin that no doubt had a stabbed soundpost...
As for me, even if I only begin to make violins as an amateur, I now take less time to put a soundpost than the person doing the demonstration for this gadget. Plus the demonstration only works if the soundpost is at the right place and the right length and shape the first time, because it must take quite a lot of time to remove the soundpost, to form the loop again, insert the soundpost, put it in place etc...
If really one wants to avoid stabbing then the method posted few months ago using a surgical scissor is much faster and much more convenient.

[Frederick Dale]

What with all the expert opinions floating about concerning the pros and cons of the effects of "stabing" the soundpost,I'm surprised nothing has been mentioned about the possible deleterious effects of the Gemini setter "choking" the soundpost.

[propolis]

possible deleterious effects of the Gemini setter "choking" the soundpost

I am more concerned about deleterious effects introduced by the operator. If someone needs training wheels on a soundpost setter, what business do they have poking around inside a violin anyway?

To release the post from the Gemini setter, the restraining cord needs to be unthreaded. Others have noticed that this setter is unsuitable for retrieving a post. The cord must be re-rigged before another attempt at standing up the post, which strikes me as a colossal waste of time.

I have inspected one of these gadgets at close hand, and I echo nonado's opinion that it is a solution in search of a problem. It seems to be aimed at school orchestra directors who must occasionally resurrect a fallen post in a "show must go on" kind of situation. That is a very small niche market, with a slim to negative return on investment in such expensive gadgetry.

[JoeDeF]

Could someone explain how to properly sharpen and bend a sound post setter (the S kind) for a cello setup.
Thanks so much.

As for the "S" bends, I can't offer any advice other than to bend it until it works well (meaning that you can easily set the post upright in approximately the right position with the sharp end without the post setter fouling the f-hole, and that you can easily change the post's positioning by bumping or nudging either end of the post with the other end of the setter). On my two setters, that required making the bends tighter (closer to a right angle before and after the bend, with a radius in between, of course). But that doesn't mean that yours will need similar bends....

I personally have gotten into the general habit of stabbing the post roughly 2/3 of the way towards the top of the post (in other words: back - 2/3 of post - stab wound - 1/3 of post - top). It works for me. However, I am not a setup specialist and I would be interested in hearing where more experienced and skilled luthiers locate the stab. If they recommend somewhere else as the best stabbing location, I would recommend heeding their opinion over mine.

The reason that I mention the stab location is that it will partially determine the location and tightness of the bend on the sharp end of your setter.

As for sharpening, a narrow point will make it easier to stab the post than a fat or wide point. So, if your setter came with a wider point, try grinding down the metal to make it narrower.

And,to protect the f-hole, do cover most of the middle of the setter with heat shrink or similar, if it did not already come with protection.

Good luck with it,

Joe

[propolis]

I was taught to stab the post about 1/3 of the way down from the top, in some little shop out in the woods. I have fussed over the geometry of my violin post setter, and have ground the point down to a 3mm chisel tip, with the flats left rough from filing.

There is more room to move around in a cello, so I use the setter just as it came. For fishing a fallen post out of the cello, a 24" flexible gooseneck parts grabber is handy. It came with four prongs at the business end. Didn't need that many, so two of them got snapped off.

[Mat Roop]

I would like to let the people who posted the soundpost setter know .
That I own the patten on this soundpost setter.For the last six years.
Please contact me when you find the time.
Thank you
Terry Farrell
Farrell& Farrell violins

Not sure what you mean Terry...
1-are you respecting this forum and trying to not "advertise" and so are asking for private email so you can answer anyone's questions?
2- are you upset that your item has been posted? ... seems like free advertising to me.. and that should be OK
3-As an FYI, there is different but seemingly same principle setter shown in the Strad Magazine March 2012 issue .. page 19 in the New Products section.
Cheers, Mat