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Polyurethane over oil stain....still tacky!


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#21 FiddleDoug

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 04:58 PM

Sorry if I come off seeming to be questioning, but you've used Minwax stain on your violin, and the only reference to Minwax that I can recall is "I have contemplated using dried Minwax Wood Finish or artist oil colors mixed into the color coats of Bulls Eye Spar Varnish." The person who wrote this was advised against it, and that was with DRIED Minwax mixed with another finish. A lot of good information has been passed your way, and you don't seem to be heeding it. Good luck with it anyway! There's always the possibility that some innovative experimenter will come up with a new and improved way of doing things.

#22 iburkard

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 06:06 PM

"No man is an island."

#23 jezzupe

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:26 PM

minwax is a division of sherwin williams, minwax is the "household grade" product line, dura seal is the professional line, mostly design for flooring....john mayer is the technical director

now related to using minwax or any other product...ONTOP.... of a sized coat....

IF mr. sine was using the stain....and alkyd based resin suspended in stoddard/mineral solvent with standard pigments/dye base....directly on the wood....this could be....NOT SO GOOD....

however by applying to a size coat....the stain will not actually be penetrating into the wood surface....only the pigments will "hot coat" into the surface of the wax free shellac and the deeper wood pits/pores....thus rendering the material colored with a semi transparent stain on the surface of the shellac....not in the wood itself....

so now lets look at this some more....

at this point what we are doing is taking a liquid vehicle, with very minimal solids, with color pigments and applying to the surface of an already sealed wood...

there would be no difference in taking say, linseed oil and adding natural pigment bases and wiping it on an wiping it of, or say water with universal colorant which does contain diethylene glycol, one of the nastiest chemical know to finishers....even though the pigments suspended in the solution is "natural"....lets call them crushed rocks and ground metals....of course we would not apply an alcohol base stain unless we really knew what were doing....

but the bottom line is that AS LONG AS MR. SINE WIPED OFF THE STAIN COMPLETLEY after applying it...that it is no different using minwax stain vrs. some red/brown natural goo you and your sherpas whipped up on the mountain top....

barring the small amount of trace alkyd soilds in the wood pits{probably not a good thing} there are realy just pigments/dyes left behind

quite inert....

i really don't like this type of finish system for violins....but, hey its an easy ways for beginers to get an even color base....

it is much more as strado pointed out.....a furniture system....

#24 Fellow

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 08:37 AM

minwax is a division of sherwin williams, minwax is the "household grade" product line, dura seal is the professional line, mostly design for flooring....john mayer is the technical director

now related to using minwax or any other product...ONTOP.... of a sized coat....

IF mr. sine was using the stain....and alkyd based resin suspended in stoddard/mineral solvent with standard pigments/dye base....directly on the wood....this could be....NOT SO GOOD....

however by applying to a size coat....the stain will not actually be penetrating into the wood surface....only the pigments will "hot coat" into the surface of the wax free shellac and the deeper wood pits/pores....thus rendering the material colored with a semi transparent stain on the surface of the shellac....not in the wood itself....

so now lets look at this some more....

at this point what we are doing is taking a liquid vehicle, with very minimal solids, with color pigments and applying to the surface of an already sealed wood...

there would be no difference in taking say, linseed oil and adding natural pigment bases and wiping it on an wiping it of, or say water with universal colorant which does contain diethylene glycol, one of the nastiest chemical know to finishers....even though the pigments suspended in the solution is "natural"....lets call them crushed rocks and ground metals....of course we would not apply an alcohol base stain unless we really knew what were doing....

but the bottom line is that AS LONG AS MR. SINE WIPED OFF THE STAIN COMPLETLEY after applying it...that it is no different using minwax stain vrs. some red/brown natural goo you and your sherpas whipped up on the mountain top....

barring the small amount of trace alkyd soilds in the wood pits{probably not a good thing} there are realy just pigments/dyes left behind

quite inert....

i really don't like this type of finish system for violins....but, hey its an easy ways for beginers to get an even color base....

it is much more as strado pointed out.....a furniture system....


+++++++++++++

By now we all get the understanding that hardware store varnish is not good for instruments. Why?
(1) won't last (2) muffle the sound (3) does not look good. Which one or all of them?

#25 sinebar1

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:02 AM

+++++++++++++

By now we all get the understanding that hardware store varnish is not good for instruments. Why?
(1) won't last (2) muffle the sound (3) does not look good. Which one or all of them?



So does anyone know where I can buy a violin finishing "kit" for my next fiddle? I figure with a good finishing kit then there isn't any guess work.

#26 iburkard

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:50 AM

There are too many unknowns with various household "hardware" finishing products. All of the notes above are legit, but apply to different scenarios, not as clear cut as we would like it to be.

I can't broadly say that all Minwax or miscellaneous canned finishes with muffle the sound, or that all finishes will be too opaque, or that all finishes will have extended drying times and not last.

I can say that Minwax one-step (stain and finish) products should never ever be use on instruments.

Putting an oil based product, even in small amounts (stain as the example here), underneath a shellac coat doesn't make any sense in terms of long term durability. It's kind of like putting latex paint on top of oil based paint... perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that it will fail, flake and peel eventually, even if most of the oil based product was removed before going to the next coat.

It's hard to go against the grain of the very well tested traditions. The violin world is not a hostile one, unless you simply believe it to be, or have no intent of learning new seemingly difficult things. Every step of the process is special. It's a bigger mind an money investment than most people like to make. I still have a bit more mind that needs investing. At the same time, I don't like being lumped in with rigid traditionalists, if you can find a good finish some other way, go for it.

As for kits... they exist... I do not know where.

#27 FiddleDoug

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 11:34 AM

As I've said before, I'm not an expert, but here's my suggestion for simple. Start with a coat or two of thinned, de-waxed shellac (seal-coat). Smooth/sand lightly to eliminate any fuzzy bits, dirt, or grain. For top coats, try Behlen's Master Violin Varnish (spirit) ($21/pint from Grizzly.com). Use some soluble dye (like Trans-tint, or soluble dyes from a violin supplier like Int. Violin Co.) to get the color you want (mix colors if necessary, and test on scrap wood). Only put dye in a couple of ounces of varnish in a jar, so that you don't commit the whole pint! Add color coats to build up to the appropriate density. Sand very lightly between coats to get rid of dust particles, etc..
After you get the appropriate color density, add a couple of coats of undyed varnish to seal everything. Rub out the final surface a bit to smooth. Some people don't like the Behlen's varnish, but I think it's OK, and it's affordable.
Any other suggestions from other members?

#28 sinebar1

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 01:37 PM

As I've said before, I'm not an expert, but here's my suggestion for simple. Start with a coat or two of thinned, de-waxed shellac (seal-coat). Smooth/sand lightly to eliminate any fuzzy bits, dirt, or grain. For top coats, try Behlen's Master Violin Varnish (spirit) ($21/pint from Grizzly.com). Use some soluble dye (like Trans-tint, or soluble dyes from a violin supplier like Int. Violin Co.) to get the color you want (mix colors if necessary, and test on scrap wood). Only put dye in a couple of ounces of varnish in a jar, so that you don't commit the whole pint! Add color coats to build up to the appropriate density. Sand very lightly between coats to get rid of dust particles, etc..
After you get the appropriate color density, add a couple of coats of undyed varnish to seal everything. Rub out the final surface a bit to smooth. Some people don't like the Behlen's varnish, but I think it's OK, and it's affordable.
Any other suggestions from other members?



That sounds like a good plan to me. It's simple and I'm going to follow it on my next fiddle. Thanks! :)

#29 jezzupe

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:13 PM

That sounds like a good plan to me. It's simple and I'm going to follow it on my next fiddle. Thanks! :)



dougs advice is very sound....

i'm just trying to help you out once you've gone freakshow nightmare....

i don't recommend it

#30 LadyAmati

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 11:34 PM

however by applying to a size coat....the stain will not actually be penetrating into the wood surface....only the pigments will "hot coat" into the surface of the wax free shellac and the deeper wood pits/pores....thus rendering the material colored with a semi transparent stain on the surface of the shellac....not in the wood itself....

so now lets look at this some more....

at this point what we are doing is taking a liquid vehicle, with very minimal solids, with color pigments and applying to the surface of an already sealed wood...


but the bottom line is that AS LONG AS MR. SINE WIPED OFF THE STAIN COMPLETLEY after applying it...that it is no different using minwax stain vrs. some red/brown natural goo you and your sherpas whipped up on the mountain top....


Hi Jezzupe, I'm a little slow here. If he wiped off the stain completely after applying it, then would he get any color from the stain at all? I don't see how the stain would get through the shellac to the deeper wood pits/pores, is that what "hot coat" means? How long should he leave the stain on before wiping it all off completely? Don't worry, no violin in question. Just learning about wood finishing.

#31 jezzupe

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 12:05 AM

Hi Jezzupe, I'm a little slow here. If he wiped off the stain completely after applying it, then would he get any color from the stain at all? I don't see how the stain would get through the shellac to the deeper wood pits/pores, is that what "hot coat" means? How long should he leave the stain on before wiping it all off completely? Don't worry, no violin in question. Just learning about wood finishing.



Sizing, what this does,if the solution of shellac is nice and thin, is to prevent over absorption into the wood grain.If we took a piece of maple say and prepared the final wood surface preparation, regardless of if it be sanded or scraped and the coated only half with the shellac and left the other half raw and then stained this....what we would see is that the raw wood would be much darker than the half with the shellac, so yes it would dramatically reduce the stains absorption, the stain will be mostly sitting on the shellac barring some penetration into the larger open pours that may have been to big for the shellac to fill up and or seal off.The company has sold this as a product that is intended to be applied to raw wood, so that is what the color representation would be, however if you wanted to have the stain"raw wood" colored on a sized coat, you would be best picking a stain color that is WAY darker as the size coat will prevent the absorption.

So in simple terms

1. size coats will make dark stains take lighter, they are not in the wood grain, they are on the initial shellac coat, depending on how thik your shellac coat is will also determine how much stain can weep into pores

2.if you want dark colors on top of a size coat you will need to use very dark stains that would almost look black on raw wood

3.stain should be applied in sections, the back, then the ribs, then the front, I allow about one minute prior to wiping the stain off, waiting too long will make it difficult to remove, it will become sticky

Always do test panels to practice, do not practice on pieces ready for finish, get your system down, then approach your woodwork, it is far easier to work confidently once you have achieved a level of predictability and confidence


Edit:

"Hot coating" is applying finish,regardless of its base on a previously applied coat WITHOUT abrasion.It must be done while the coat you are trying to "hot coat" is still uncured, it relates to inner coat adhesion

An example

Apply one coat of wax free shellac, wait 45 min without abrasion,then apply a coat of oil base polyurethane, because the shellac is wax free and because we did not allow it to "cure" it is still slightly chemically soft, when we apply the poly, even though it is of a dissimilar base, it will chemically weld into the shellac coat and in essence the will become one....

If we waited say 2 months for the shellac to dry and then applied the poly, the poly would stick but would be much more susceptible to adhesion failure down the road as the shellac was not soft and uncured when we applied the poly, it had become "crispy" and will not allow for the poly to "weld", the two are now not one....not good

#32 LadyAmati

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 11:24 AM

Thanks a lot jezzupe for the explanation. I will try it on test pieces. I have a dulcimer I'm making with mahogany and spruce. Usually I do not put any stain on it, just dewaxed shellac washcoat followed by 4-5 coats of Waterlox oil varnish. But I was curious about adding some color. One guy said to put a small amount of asphaltum into the Waterlox. However he's probably assuming no sealer coat of shellac, as he uses straight tung oil with the asphaltum. I don't want too much "stain" per se, but to pop the grain nicely.

#33 jezzupe

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 11:55 AM

Thanks a lot jezzupe for the explanation. I will try it on test pieces. I have a dulcimer I'm making with mahogany and spruce. Usually I do not put any stain on it, just dewaxed shellac washcoat followed by 4-5 coats of Waterlox oil varnish. But I was curious about adding some color. One guy said to put a small amount of asphaltum into the Waterlox. However he's probably assuming no sealer coat of shellac, as he uses straight tung oil with the asphaltum. I don't want too much "stain" per se, but to pop the grain nicely.


Waterlox is a tung oil with modified phenolic resins{a bakelite derivative} I am very familiar with this product. Generally i do not recommend this, but waterlox is proven "safe" to add stain to to tint it. So you may apply the stain to a size coat as previously described, then follow with waterlox or add some stain to the waterlox to make "polyshades". Always do samples before committing.Less stain is better, too much stain mixed in the WL will make it streak.Again these systems are not recommended for violins by me, but are most likely fine for instruments that that do not have such dynamic frequency parameters

#34 Craig Tucker

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 11:56 AM

By now we all get the understanding that hardware store varnish is not good for instruments. Why?
(1) won't last (2) muffle the sound (3) does not look good. Which one or all of them?



Lumping all hardware store varnish into one catagory, (not good for instruments) probably isn't really an accurate way to catagorize them, since there is a huge variety of different finishes available.

 ... Another pleasant valley Sunday,

Here in status symbol land.


#35 viola_license_revoked

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 10:12 PM

hello

like to share my lack of furniture/viola making experiences.
the pictures say it all... i never learned it the "right" way so i don'r fuss over things.
i'm not doing this to make money anyway.

good luck, have fun, don't worry so much.

V_L_R

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seroiusly, why not?

請多多指教!

 

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#36 Craig Tucker

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:01 AM

hello
good luck, have fun, don't worry so much.

V_L_R



I couldn't have said it better. Life is short. Do what you enjoy. Enjoy what you do.

Learn from your successes and your failures, and above all else...

When in doubt, build!

Nice post VLR, I really like your look, don't stop.

Craig T

 ... Another pleasant valley Sunday,

Here in status symbol land.


#37 Fellow

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 07:39 AM

Lumping all hardware store varnish into one catagory, (not good for instruments) probably isn't really an accurate way to catagorize them, since there is a huge variety of different finishes available.


++++++++++++++

Hi CT,

There is only one kind of varnish in hardware stores, polyurethane based.
The people here talk about spirit or oil etc. kind of varnish.

I asked them if they have de-wax shellac, they said there never have wax in shellac only have alcohol in it.
They said shellac is good anyting but it won't last , you can (or I can) apply any other varnish on it. It will
flack(?) flick(?) ( curl up in small pieces like old paint burn, I guess) after sometime.

Those are the hardware store people's answers.

In short, it won't last or look good on an instrument. Of course, hardware people would not be concerned with acoustics.

#38 COB3

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 07:52 AM

You need a different hardware store...
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#39 Craig Tucker

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 08:03 AM

You need a different hardware store...



Yes, probably so.

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Here in status symbol land.


#40 Craig Tucker

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 08:09 AM

++++++++++++++

Hi CT,

There is only one kind of varnish in hardware stores, polyurethane based.
The people here talk about spirit or oil etc. kind of varnish.

I asked them if they have de-wax shellac, they said there never have wax in shellac only have alcohol in it.
They said shellac is good anyting but it won't last , you can (or I can) apply any other varnish on it. It will
flack(?) flick(?) ( curl up in small pieces like old paint burn, I guess) after sometime.

Those are the hardware store people's answers.

In short, it won't last or look good on an instrument. Of course, hardware people would not be concerned with acoustics.


http://www.maestrone...?...t=0&start=0

 ... Another pleasant valley Sunday,

Here in status symbol land.





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